WAW staying, I'm leaving to give her space..

[jab]

Will you defend your past? Will you indicate to her the she is not seeing clearly? Will you defend yourself? Will you defend yourself? Or will you trust that she is right, and acknowledge her pain.

Answers: No. No. No. No. Yes.
I am validating her feelings and acknowledging her pain. I am not defending anything I did anymore.

Some might disagree with me, but I think it would be perectly fine for you to ask her if there is an OM. Not a specific OM who's name is ???, and lives at ???, whom she works with and went to see on ???.

But just asking the question conveys meaning to her. Lets her know you are concerned, and that she might be crossing your boundary line. Don't do anything to control her, you just would like to know so that YOU can make decisions regarding YOUR life.

COG, I didn't mention it but this is very similar to what I did last night. I think this is part of the reason she freaked out so much but I felt I had to do it. I think this worked. I really don't want to get into the details too much, but IMHO she is feeling ALOT of guilt or nervousness about this, even if she was only thinking about an A and nothing happened with OM. I basically told her that I know I cannot control what she does and I'm not trying to. I only asked why was she being so secretive about things if she had nothing to hide? I didn't reveal anything about what I know other than the IUD (which was easy for me to explain how I know without revealing any of the snooping: I overheard her on phone). She gave me IMHO some very lame excuse about IUD and why she didn't tell me about it. I just said to W if that was the reason then why hide it? And then I STFU about it. I mentioned nothing about anything else I found out from snooping.

I knew more than she knew I knew, but I stayed strong. I think I asked her if she had another man a few times, but not in the context of fear, rather as one mature individual to another.

This is how I tried to do it.

One other thing I did that may have triggered something was that I took the phone bill and laid it on counter and strategically placed it so that OM's # was in plain view as I was going out the door to work. I didn't make it obvious I placed it there like that. I wanted to see if there was a reaction.

Well, I got two reactions:

1) She was so upset at work she came home early and never got out of bed before I left for work this morning. I don't think she was angry but did seem very distressed. I acted ASIF, got the kids ready for school, etc. Said a calm, nice goodbye and went to work.

2) She called me about an hour after I left. W was basically worried how I was going to act when I came home (she sounded sad or nervous, not mad). I said that I was going to 'chill out' and STFU. W was still very worried about me not believing her about not having an A. I said what does it matter if I don't believe you? You don't believe me that I'm going to change? I cannot control what you do, nor am I trying anymore. If you have nothing to hide then why be worried about what I think?

I said, I was upset when you came home early because I knew you were upset so bad that you came home, not because I thought you were with some OM. I care about how you feel and want to give you what you need to be happy. The last thing I want to do is argue with you, fight with you, accuse you, confront you, make you angry, try and control your actions. What I want to do is give you the space you need to 'chill out' so you can start becoming happy again. W mentioned something again about how she is scared of what I might do when I leave and if I continue not believing her innocence. I basically stated, what I'm going to do is become a better person and get my 's***' together for once. I'm not going to bother you if you don't want to be bothered with me. I want to get my life back on track, I don't want things to continue like they have been. I will do what I need to do, I'm not going to just crumble and die. You do what you want. I'm being upfront and honest with you about everything, I just ask for the same. As in the past, you couldn't keep the R afloat by yourself, nor can I now. A R/M takes two. I'm not going back on my word.

So I basically didn't STFU but W wanted to talk so I did. I tried to be very calm but strong, not accusive. Tonite, I'm going to act ASIF and STFU about it. I'm probably not following DB rules but W's reactions the last 24 hours seem to be changing a little. I MUST get DB/DR book ASAP! I need to educate myself quick!

[COG]

Jab,

One other thing I did that may have triggered something was that I took the phone bill and laid it on counter and strategically placed it so that OM's # was in plain view as I was going out the door to work. I didn't make it obvious I placed it there like that. I wanted to see if there was a reaction.

That was pretty sly. I think you may have gotten away with one there. She's sounds pretty nervous thinking that you might know what's going on, but not confronting her about it. Best be very careful about that though. Because most likely there's nothing going on.

The last thing I want to do is argue with you, fight with you, accuse you, confront you, make you angry, try and control your actions.

Make sure you follow up this statement with your actions.

I basically stated, what I'm going to do is become a better person and get my 's***' together for once. I'm not going to bother you if you don't want to be bothered with me. I want to get my life back on track, I don't want things to continue like they have been. I will do what I need to do, I'm not going to just crumble and die. You do what you want. I'm being upfront and honest with you about everything, I just ask for the same. As in the past, you couldn't keep the R afloat by yourself, nor can I now. A R/M takes two. I'm not going back on my word.

Nice! Well said! Perfect answer. If your actions match your words, you'll be well ahead of the game. She'll be watching your every move, watching to see if you are a man or a mouse.

I'm probably not following DB rules but W's reactions the last 24 hours seem to be changing a little.

Alls fair in love and war! Here's my philosophy. If your words and actions create a positive outcome, then keep doing them, or do more of them. If the outcome is negative, then stop. Stay attuned to the subtle forces at work. There are going to be times to go dark, and there are going to be times to open up. Keep it natural to your life's path, and she'll be intrigued.

Good Work!

COG

[Jeff223]

IMHO she is feeling ALOT of guilt or nervousness about this, even if she was only thinking about an A and nothing happened with OM.

Yes she is and that is why it is time to drop it. If you cause her to be reminded of this guilt she will grow to resent you.

You said what you needed to say.

W was still very worried about me not believing her about not having an A. I said what does it matter if I don't believe you? You don't believe me that I'm going to change? I cannot control what you do, nor am I trying anymore. If you have nothing to hide then why be worried about what I think?

Is that the way to empathize? She was trying to share and you made it all about you. How many times did you say the word "YOU" to her here.

Every time was a direct attack.

Think about it. What will you say next time? She is hurting and you basically kicked her to the curb.

I took the phone bill and laid it on counter and strategically placed it so that OM's # was in plain view

Another direct attack. All about you and your hurt feelings.

I MUST get DB/DR book ASAP! I need to educate myself quick!

Yes. But you need the N.U.T.s book also. Trust me - it addresses everything you need to work on as a man.

BTW, you are doing EXACTLY the same things I did. So don't beat yourself up. It takes time to learn these tools.

Strength and Honor.

[FaithfulH]

jaBRWok,

One minute it seems to me that you are doing very well at this DB thing (despite not having read the book)...the next? I don't understand why you continue to talk so much! A major mistake....R and M discussion. Your W is NOT ready for this....even if she seems to want to go there. As a dear friend of mine says, "Zip your lips"...little nicer than STFU. Give it a rest!

Regarding OM discussion, on the one hand, I agree with COG that asking about OM in the right context might not be harmful...but, this latest post seems to indicate to me that you've already discussed that and much more.

While my sitch was different than yours, my W told me she had "trust" issues with me as well. Let me put it as simple as I can. Nothing you SAY is going to help! In fact, it is likely to hurt. The only thing that matters is your actions...what she SEES! Think of it this way....say you and I come upon each other in a dark alley and I look really shady...kinda like this:

a guy fresh out of prison, unemployed, and missing several teeth

(..sorry, COG...couldn't resist) So, I tell you "don't worry I know I have a reputation for hurting people but I don't want to hurt you". Would you trust me...or would you be afraid? I hate to say it...but, the parallels with your W's emotional state are many. She has experienced hurt that she believes came from you. She is in a bad place emotionally right now and needs space to deal with her own stuff. You are dishonoring her when you violate that request!

I'm feeling smothered just reading about all of your discussions. I don't think they are helping!

...and another thing, as we used to say in the military RTFM (read the f***ing manual)!

[Jeff223]

Good Post FH.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Jab,

This is going to sound harsh, and too bad this isn't a place for wimps. The drop out rate is high.

You say here that NOW you're going to STFU, after every time you don't because you have to say one more thing.

I can see why your wife doesn't believe you.

No offense.

[jab]

W just texted me:

"Can U talk? Sitting here crying all day. Hate life, U said I dont talk. I'll try."


Wow..

[Jeff223]

Are you going to talk?

Or are you going to LISTEN?

Up to you.

[jab]

Got off phone with W.

I'll make it brief. She was a mess. W is confused, she doesn't know what she wants, doesn't even know if she wants me to move out. W really wants to believe that I'm going to change, wants to work things out but is so afraid of me failing to make the changes permanent.

That pretty much says it all. I gotta go back to work now, I think I'm going home early today. W needs an ear I think.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

W needs an ear I think.