WAW staying, I'm leaving to give her space..

[AmyC]

Besides, he doesn't have it together enough to walk the walk under the same roof. Also, he has only been dry for a couple of months.

In general, a LBS should never leave. But he's on the cusp of it.
To backtrack now could be the equivalent of a death blow in his sitch....

Find me someone on this site that wasn't all over the road when they got here. Jab has been flogged enough over his problems. He just didn't know enough to not make claims under emotional distress. I put no stock in coulda, shoulda, woulda.

You have an attitude problem, SA.

I am not flogging Jab at all and yes, every single one of us was a wreck when we arrived here. However, this is what happens when we stay: we learn and then we try to help others. That doesn't always include warm and fuzzy coddling.
It you want an idea of how I "flog" look around these boards. You will find plenty of examples of my "flogging".
You will also find a lot of patience and encouragement, just as was given to me when I arrived and ALL the times I backslid.
I don't even know jab well enough to even begin to "flog" him. Are you here to help him or coddle him?
I am here to try to help him and if that includes saying things YOU perceive as floging, I don't give a rat's ass.

Sorry about the hijack, jab.
I will remove myself from your thread for a little while to prevent any further nonsense.

Good luck, man.
With whatever you decide.

[theforlornhope]

Jab,

You're very fortunate, there are a lot of experienced people posting to your thread.

This isn't normally the way it works, usually there are only a few "veterans" who jump in and hopefully stick with you.

Take a hard look back at the posts you've recieved. Pay attention to them. These folks are following tons of threads, and their time here means something.

Sometimes they might not agree, but usually they will. Take what they say in context with your sit.

[jab]

I am overwhelmed with all of this response. I am deeply touched.

I just wanted to give a quick update before i went to bed.

I continued moving some small boxes today, picked up kids from school and went home.

I was very distressed and emotionally wrecked. Avoided wife until dinner. I basically told her I needed to get out of house for awhile and that I was going to AA. I just had to get out because I was in NO state to have any PMA at all.

Went to AA and came back home. Felt better but still not great. W and I started conversation after kids went to bed. I did good. It was actually alot of me validating and admitting how much of an idiot I have been over the past 6 years, admitting my mistakes and had a chance to express some things that I don't think she knew about how I've been feeling. I can go into detail some other post. I mentioned NOTHING about my snooping fiascos or anything like that. I dedcided it wasn't a good idea (I was thinking about Atlas' comments about his sitch). We didn't fight, just discussed some things, she vented and listened, I vented and listened. W actually admitted that she did some things wrong in our M. W and I mutally decided it was done talking about things (we talked about an hour) I just said 'ok, thanks for not fighting with me and getting some of this off our chests.' We then watched 'Everest' together. In summary, I may not have liked alot of what I heard about where W stands right now, but I listened, validated and we both agreed M couldn't continue the way it was going. She has some major trust issues with me (for good reason) but didn't rule out completely that we may be able to work on our M, just not right now. I HAVE ALOT OF WORK TO DO!!

I still don't know whether moving out is right or wrong but I do know this after conversation. She doesn't TRUST me. IMHO it's too late in the game so I have to go for awhile, if I didn't I'd be going back on my word again and problems would just escalate. My actions before finding DB only hurt the situation more. IMHO it would have taken about another week of my prior actions to seal my D if I didn't find DB when I did. She needs some time to herself, she has alot of s*** going on in her head between me and her F.

I think there is hope for R/M but not anytime soon. Once again, I have ALOT OF WORK AHEAD. R/M may never be repaired but regardless, I will be better, she will be better. The problems have been going on for 6 years. How long do you think it will take for this to start turning around? She said she's holding off on D for awhile (1 year, will reevaluate then). S is what she wants right now. IMHO we need to S somehow for a month or two for this to have a chance. I didn't want to but I'm the one who made most of the mistakes so this is my 'sentence'. It's not so bad that I think that she's going to 'put me through the wringer'. She needs me to get through this in one piece, she said it.

I don't know what her plans are for dating. She expects she will want to date others. Maybe with me but not right now. I asked her if she was dating now. Once again, she said NOOOO, but not in an 'angry' way. She said she doesn't trust herself right now. In a way I believe her, in a way I don't. Doesn't matter, I can't stop her from doing what she wants.

She said I should date after awhile. I said I felt like I was still committed to M but in a few months maybe I'll want to date someone else, maybe I won't. Right now, I don't.

That's a summary, I can elaborate later. I'm going to bed (in same bed as W) and she said it was ok to do so. I may not have that chance for awhile. No, not even going there, I know what you are all thinking

I know I need to start going forward in smaller steps, expect less to take longer. I need to take things day by day right now. I can reevaluate my living situation after 60 days. She's not filing before then, unless I totally f*** up, I'm pretty positive of that.

Once again, thanks for all the support. I need to digest some of this info. I'll be here on DB for quite a while. This is going to be a long ride. I'll order the books this week.

[Virtually_Handsome]

I don't know what her plans are for dating. She expects she will want to date others. Maybe with me but not right now. I asked her if she was dating now. Once again, she said NOOOO, but not in an 'angry' way. She said she doesn't trust herself right now. In a way I believe her, in a way I don't. Doesn't matter, I can't stop her from doing what she wants.

She said I should date after awhile. I said I felt like I was still committed to M but in a few months maybe I'll want to date someone else, maybe I won't. Right now, I don't.

Well, I'd have to say that went pretty well. Except for the stuff I left in the quote it sounds like you really got better understanding, both of you. I'd say that her reaction at least shows a possibility of hope. (There are always other possibilities, and they can't be ignored, but there's no point in dwelling o them.) I think talking about dating or not is totally counterproductive. Look at it this way, if she want to she is going to, no matter what she says now, or what your opinion is. Also, if you don't want to, you won't, having here tell you that she thinks you should doesn't mean you should (you know what's right, there). It's her way of trying to justify what she plans on doing. Not having that conversation doesn't give her that 'out'. But, too late for that, it's water under the bridge.

I think you made the right decision on moving out, for now. I know there are other opinions, from people I respect, but I just think staying wouldn't work. Besides, this give you a much better chance to clear up the house arrest thing in a positive way, and I think helps to set a precise time when the situation can be re-evaluated (at least by you).

Good luck!
Jeff

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

I said I felt like I was still committed to M but in a few months maybe I'll want to date someone else, maybe I won't. Right now, I don't.

My 2x4 for you -

1. You can not serve two masters. You are either going to work on this marriage or you aren't. Dating shouldn't be in your vocabulary if the goal is healing your marriage. Certainly not "right now', and not even "maybe".

2. If not moving out now is going back on your word - then how would you reconcile dating with "forsake all others" "better or worse", "til death do you part", etc? That is going back on your word. That is the ultimate going back on your word.

Don't waver, man. Take a position and hold it.

[SingleAgain]

I know I need to start going forward in smaller steps, expect less to take longer. I need to take things day by day right now. I can reevaluate my living situation after 60 days. She's not filing before then, unless I totally f*** up, I'm pretty positive of that.

Once again, thanks for all the support. I need to digest some of this info. I'll be here on DB for quite a while. This is going to be a long ride. I'll order the books this week.

jaBRWok,
Do not wait to order DB. You should be able to walk right into the bookstore and pick it up. Make the most of this opportunity for personal growth.

[FaithfulH]

I still don't know whether moving out is right or wrong but I do know this after conversation. She doesn't TRUST me. IMHO it's too late in the game so I have to go for awhile, if I didn't I'd be going back on my word again and problems would just escalate. My actions before finding DB only hurt the situation more. IMHO it would have taken about another week of my prior actions to seal my D if I didn't find DB when I did. She needs some time to herself, she has alot of s*** going on in her head between me and her F.

Jab,

I want to weigh in on the "moving out" question. I believe you need to stay in your home. I know you told her you were moving out....but, I wonder if a higher order principle isn't....Be willing to admit when you've made a mistake! As one who shared a home with a spouse during our separation, I can tell you that it takes a tremendous amount of strength to give your spouse what they want (time and space) when you are constantly coming face to face. However, I believe the fact that we shared a home shortened our separation (9 months in total) significantly. Admittedly I didn't have some of the same "demons" to battle that you are going after...and maybe you feel like you need the separation as well. Your conversation with her yesterday gave me a sense that you might be able to make it work at home. However, I believe you would need to agree on well defined boundaries. For example, my W moved into an adjacent room...perhaps you should offer to move into another room. As IWMIW stated, let your W lead here. This is about meeting HER needs and rebuilding HER trust.

BTW, I also agree with other posters about the dating comments. It is plain manipulation to state that you might date later. You don't have any desire to do that or you wouldn't be here. Your W (like most women) has an awesome "radar" and she can see this from a mile away. The changes in you must be real...for you...regardless of whether your marriage is restored. The dating comments were a setback on the trust meter! Don't worry about it...move on...and don't make that mistake again.

[Jeff223]

I still don't know whether moving out is right or wrong but I do know this after conversation. She doesn't TRUST me. IMHO it's too late in the game so I have to go for awhile, if I didn't I'd be going back on my word again and problems would just escalate.

Sorry Jeff but I have to say this one more time b/c my moving out was the worst move I ever made. Jab, your W sounds EXACTLY like mine except your W seems to want to talk some - my W shut down completely.

Trust was also involved in my decision to move. I also wanted to give her space.

It backfired - instead of the move giving her time to think about trying again together, it only gave her time to think how wonderful things were without me there. She could not see my changes. She could not interact with me to WORK on the issues - she was free from them instead.

Listen to FaithfulH and others. Have you talked to a lawyer? If not, do it.

But your call. And I will NOT say I told you so.

She said she's holding off on D for awhile (1 year, will reevaluate then). S is what she wants right now.

I can reevaluate my living situation after 60 days. She's not filing before then, unless I totally f*** up, I'm pretty positive of that.

My W said EXACTLY the same thing and we agreed. A month after I moved I got an email (yes, you heard right, an email) saying she wanted a D and that she had a lawyer.

I didn't want to but I'm the one who made most of the mistakes so this is my 'sentence'.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. You BOTH made mistakes. Now you know. But be warned that you only THINK you know what to work on. Believe me, you have to look deep into your soul to get to the root cause.

Ditto on the dating. Dating is just to manipulate her. How can you build trust when you are seeing another person?

Do get Divorce Remedy. Also buy Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. by Wayne Levine. It is about being a strong man in relationships. It talks about "tools' you can use to be the man you want to be in the eyes of your partner. While you are waiting for the book, here is a list of the tools you will use the most:

1. Silence the Little Boy.
2. Express but don't defend your feelings.
3. Cooperate without compromising your base terms (your terms are what you stand for as a man).
4. Be the Rock.
5. Don't Argue.
6. Listen.

Use these tools in all your interactions, as well as the DB tools. But remember, the DB tools are for damage control. These "BetterMen" tools are to reshape your core self.

Yes you will fail and fail again. Pick yourself up and get back in the game.

Strength and Honor.

[jab]

This thread is getting big, may have to start a new one soon. I want to point out a couple of things.

1) The feedback is wonderful. I feel truly blessed! I am truly taking every comment seriously. There are alot of comments saying things I already know, I appreciate the 2x4's...not all were necessary because I already knew some of what was stated, but some were.

2) As far as moving out. I'm scared. The decision was rushed and it was a hard one to make. I don't think moving out is the best choice. There are a couple reasons why I chose to move forward with moving out. a) both counselors said in my sitch it is probably better for short term, not long term. C also things that I should figure out how to move back in with W ASAP b) I need time to figure out how I'm getting to/from job. c) I will still be in my home on weekends. d) I blew my chance of avoiding this in the beginning. W threatened D if I didn't do it, I have kids and don't want to displace them from our home....there are alot of reasons. I don't really care that much about losing the house, my priority is retaining and repairing our family.

3) The dating..In our conversation last night, I asked her because of my thoughts of a secret A going on. W said she planned on dating others in the future. W said to ME that I should date others. I just posted my response to her that I didn't plan on it but who knows what I will think a few months from now. I was honest about it.

4) I found out alot of things in our conversation last night. W revealed the REAL reason for her wanting a D (and it was what I thought). The drinking was the 'last straw', not the real cause. The REAL reason is this (and I'll try to quote her as accurately as possible: "When she met me she thought of me as a strong, good looking, happy, outgoing and fun person to be with. What W ended up with was a weak, angry, depressed, indifferent, emotional wreck that acted like he didn't want to be around W or cared about W. W wanted a person to be 'into her' and I wasn't. I agreed with her 100% that that's the way I was and I want to change that, that I REALLY AM INTO HER even though I didn't act like it, I was an idiot. W admitted that over the past year or two it got to the point that she was hard on me because in her mind, she was just making a 'mental journal' of all my mistakes, overlooked the positive things and was very bitter and that's why she acted the way she did towards me. W admitted that was wrong but wanted me to understand how she felt. W asked me why was it ok for me to 'fall apart' and W didn't? W stated that she went through all the same 'hell' that I did and she didn't lose grip mentally as bad as I did. I told her that I was sorry and it wasn't fair, I should have gotten help for my problems a long time ago. W asked me why did my actions and feelings change for her when we was pregnant with S? (this is where R/M went downhill) I told her I didn't know and that's what I need to figure out. Maybe I wasn't ready to be a father yet. I stated that was why I wanted C, to figure out what happened, understand it, prevent it from reoccuring again. I told W that C wasn't all about me trying to change her mind, it was about trying to understand what happened to us. There were alot of other comments, all valid, too many to list. W also admitted some of her faults in the past, I was thankful for that see things in a different perspective now that she finally talked and not argued about her feelings.

5) If I said today that I'll never have a drop of alcohol again for the rest of my life I'd be either a liar or a fool! I can say this...I will come out of this a better person. I am committed to become sober and I'm making ALOT of progress, I probably will slip but I'm committed to being sober for good. I am doing this for myself and not just to impress my W. I won't go back to my previous self. This will NOT happen to me again!

6) I can't just go to the bookstore. Everywhere I drive, it's driving illegal and if I get caught, I'm in deep s***! I'm trying to avoid this as much as possible. I live in a remote area, taxicabs and carpooling are difficult. I have few friends that live near me. I need to figure out how to get transportation to/from work without burdening my W, this is a big reason for the S! She feels burdened with this!

7) I need to get my head 'screwed on straight'. Another reason why I think it will be good to temporarily S. I don't want to cause any more damage. Our house is not big enough for me to get a 'seperate room'. I still need to figure out some things before I make any irrational decisions. I have alot of information to 'digest' right now. I lost the battle but need to regroup my mental army to win the war.

8) Jeff, what happened to you is EXACTLY what I am fearing will happen to me. I'm taking all your responses seriously. I have a few days where I can still 'call it all off'. I need to allow myself to make the 'best' decision based on everything I know and can do at the moment. W does need me financially and logistically for child care. I don't think she's going to do anything in the next 60 days to screw herself. If she screws me, she's screwing herself too. If I do move out (which I think I have to), I plan on moving back ASAP.

9) I'm going to talk to a lawyer. It's on my 'todo' list this week.

10) One of the big things that came up in conversation last night is W's lack of TRUST in me to follow through with the things I need to do (talk is cheap) to allow our M to be repaired. She doesn't trust me giving her time and space, allow her to go out with friends unconditionally. She doesn't trust that I won't go on a 'bender' or start drinking again. She doesn't trust that I won't become depressed, angry and mentally weak again. She doesn't trust that I will become more 'into her' and not act indifferent again. W said that will take time for her to trust what I am saying I will do and alot of consistency on my part moving forward. All valid arguments by W. I don't have a good track record. I've had some major problems with all of these the past 3 years or so.

Ok, so I have one question. If I should stay in house, how do I approach W and attempt to stay at this point? How in the heck am I going to bring up THAT subject without it blowing up in my face. I tried it a week or two ago and it literally 'BLEW UP'.

I am guessing that I have to say to W that as far as dating and my plans, my stance is different than what I said last night, I don't plan on dating and I plan on saving our family and moving back into house as soon as I can figure out how I get transportation on my own. Is this what is being told to me?

[Tostada]

I have to say that my W wanted me to leave, even though she was the WAS....we had some really tough discussions in counseling and after a few weeks of me saying I would never leave, I conceded to leave in a C session because i thought it was the best opportunity for us to figure this out. However, after much discussion among friends and family, I came to the belief that she needed to experience the difficulty of all that comes with moving out. She is the one that has chosen this route so she should be put out the most. So....I changed my mind. One night she said to me that she thought my looking for a place to live was proceeding rather slowly. Thus, I dropped my bomb on her that I had changed my mind. Yes...she blew a gasket. She was really pissed for awhile but I stuck to my decision. She began looking for houses and discovered how expensive it was. I believe she also discovered how difficult it would be. In only a couple weeks after I laid this on her, she 'decided' that she wanted to work on our M. But, I blew it. I got too excited and backslid for miles. She has now decided she does not want to work on it and has stated she will move out in Jan.

I am of the belief that if I moved out, her life would go on much the same and I would be out of sight out of mind pretty fast. I think she has a bigger chance of missing me and what she had if she's not here. So...I'll recommend that since your W wants to walk away, then literally walk away.