WAW staying, I'm leaving to give her space..

[Jeff223]

Hey guy,

Another pro to get his two cents in. Lot of great advice here although some is a little harsh at you IMO. But it is good advice. And I too will use a 2x4 some

Go to the mirror right now and look. What do you see?

No, that is not you looking back, it is me.

You see, we follow exactly the same path. Only I am two years ahead of you. Learn.

but the focus was more on my past drinking, how it affected her, and why I needed to accept the divorce and move out.

I drank. I did not like certain things about my life so I self medicated. Booze is not the problem - it masks the real problems. You say "I have not taken a drink in several months". That is not the answer. What have you done to identify and begin to correct the root cause? Why do you drink?

How does your W feel? Bet I know. Let me quote my W. And I never put this on this BB before.

"Jeff, the drinking is the balm you use to numb yourself to the frustrations of the day and living in an imperfect world. the rest of us have to deal with it b/c I cannot give the children alcohol to help them cope and I choose to be aware of what is going on in my own home. If we should have to learn to deal with you and your imperfections stone cold sober, so should you. This is the very reason you thought we were happy and the rest of the family knew there was trouble."

Sound familar?

Why do you drink? Be honest about that and the drinking will go away, with some help. A DUI indicates a serious problem - but your drinking is no less serious than mine - I just did not drive. And yes I too call BS on the car wreck "rationale" you offer.

I worked two jobs (one a night job and one a part time day job) and she went to nursing school fulltime, with 2 children! We hardly had any time together. To say it was rough would be a huge understatement!! ... All through this I was drinking to cope and was basically neglecting our relationship.

Same here. I worked my butt off to help her. We also had two young kids. I grew to resent it. You see, I did not understand the 'Five languages of love' (read that book). I was doing Act of Service and Gift Giving when all the time what my W needed was Quality Time and Affirmations. I was not filling her love tank; neither were you.

I felt decieved and unappreciated although I did admit that I knew things weren't that great but I thought things were finally getting better and that we could work on living a happy life, repair the wounds of the past without all the external pressures we had before.

Me too. I got angry and bitter. I did not even realize it. I was and even after two years I still am.

Anger is a good thing IF it tells you something. But I focused on her instead of me. All I did I did with expectations that she would see the "new" me and come running back. Did not happen.

You are doing the exact same things I did. Expect the same results.

Am I doing the right thing by moving out for now to give her space?

Short answer is NO.

I moved out. Why? To give her space, to do the noble thing. Real reason? She would miss me and reconsider. And I only found that out later - with the help of folks here.

Know what happened and what I predict for you? A month after I moved out she asked me for a divorce. She LIKED being by herself - that new freedom. Not being around Jeff the drunk any longer. Yes, I cut back on the booze and was doing things to improve me - but she did not see them b/c I was not there for her to see!

Plus, as the D thing got started, I was the one who abandoned the family. I lost my chances for joint custody. I moved out without a written agreement. FOOL should have been writen across my head.

Oh, so you are going to move back in after this DUI thing is over?

Yea, right. My lawyer told me to move back in after several months away so I could protect myself with the custody thing. I did move back in for a week but I left. She did not want me there and that was not good for the kids. Your W will not want you back and don't be surprised if she does something legally to get you kicked out. After all, you are a drunk, you abandoned the family, you have a police record ... think about it.

And then ask yourself WHY you are really leaving? Is it b/c you really expect a reaction from her? A positive reaction like I did?

That is what is driving you now my friend. Ask me how I know. Everything you are doing is to save your M.

And everything you are doing is wrong.

Been there, done that.

Go ahead, move. See what happens. She will breath easy, move on without you, not see your changes, keep the house and the kids, and you will be alone in your apartment, thankful you have hot water and heat.

And stop the BS about being closer to work. Do you want your family or not. Then fight on your home ground. I bet she is scared to death - my W would never have moved b/c of the same self esteem issues you say your W had (and still has I bet).

Hire a taxi service. Car pool. Anything. It is worth hiring a limo if you have to. Is your family not worth that?

Move and you lose. Ask me how I know.

Ready for more? I will address things in the order you wrote them.

Keep in mind, she is not innocent and has many issues she needs to work on as well.

Really? Work on you first before making statements like this. This is your angry little boy talking. How do I know? B/c I just asked MY angry little boy to comment.

I think the biggest obstacle for me is getting her to take the 'hate/angry/negative' goggles off.

Sorry but I had to LOL at that one. I said almost the same thing. How wrong I was!

I told her I wouldn't call her excessively and that I thought it might be a good idea that kids just come to my apt the first month or two and that I don't come to the house at all like previously planned.

The mistake I did not make is not to have a visitation plan for the kids. IF you move, which you should not, then a plan is not optional. The kids deserve it and you will have far fewer arguments if you have it down in writing.

She said no xmas present for her from me but I still wanted to get her something that I wanted to get her last year. Nothing romantic or expensive. I know DB says no gifts, thinking about this one.

First Christmas away I gave her earings and a card saying that I was praying that our family will be whole again.

Bone head thing to do. All it did was to make her feel like I was reminding her that her actions were causing the breakup. And giving her any gift reminder her of happier days and that is not what she wanted to remember. The gift was ALL about me - I wanted her to feel guilty. I realize that now but I did not at the time.

Don't make the same mistake. Lesson learned: no gifts.

There are a few other things I was wondering whether I should discuss before I move out:

1) Should I bring up the subject of dating during sep? I think she wants an opportunity to date (she's mentioned that at some point we should both start dating) but I'm totally against it! For one thing, there is no way I can date for at least two months. Second, I think it will just complicate things for obvious reasons, but I don't want to sound controlling.

2) Do we set any goals for her to work on or R or just mention goals for myself and leave it at that? I figured that this may be better left to MC or IC.

3) Should I readdress how I feel before I go one last time and how should I go about that? I just wanted to tell her one last time that I wished there was a way to make things better without having to leave. That I feel so bad for the pain that I caused her, that this is not my decision and that I am committed to our marriage vows and I'm not going to repeat the mistakes of the past....etc...

Easy: don't move. If you do then that says it all, no need to discuss any of this. You move, you will be viewed as the loser. Double so if you discuss 'dating'. You think that will make her jealous or something? Her view - no one will have you or only the worse kind will. Goals - not interested (I tried that when I moved out, I can list but this post is getting too long as it is). Tell her one more time? Go ahead. It will ONLY MAKE THINGS WORSE. As someone else here said better than I: STFU!

Today I decided to try and fix it and saw a post a couple days ago on DB about playlists and what kind of music their WAW was listening to. I became curious so I started listening to W playlist that she uses on the treadmill. WOW! Not going to list the lyrics here but the songs were definitely a 'window to her mind' over the past few months. Songs about dumping bad partners, you never understood me, you never cared, songs about escape, the messages were all there.

What did you expect. And you are snooping. Real men do not snoop. That was a 2x4 my friend.

Is there ANYONE out there that thinks I should go because I told my wife I would to give her some space to think and because she said if I didn't that she was going to move out and file D?

Some did suggest you move. A real man admits when he is wrong.

Okay. Please let me repeat that. A real man admits when he is wrong. Some others here say since you said so-and-so you need to follow through. Wrong. A real man admits when he is wrong and corrects his error.

When I moved I told myself the same BS but I was moving with expectations. That was wrong. The SECOND time I moved I did it b/c I had NO expectations - I realized I fu*ked up already and did not want to make things worse. Again, why do you feel you must move?

1) Come to grips that wife wants a D and we need to do it if that's what wife wants, deal with it, accept it and move on. - This was right out of the gate 1st session with wife.
2) I am in denial about my drinking, my actions that caused damage and I just hit 'rock bottom'.
3) I'm a 'dry drunk' so that's why I'm not accepting the D and I'm selfish, self-centered because I'm not carrying on with W's wishes and agree with D.

That is all so correct. Been there.

But you go on to say:

Counselor and W have NO CLUE where I'm at or how far I've come mentally. IMHO counselor is just taking sides with wife because of C's previous abusive alcoholic husband and D from him (I'm not abusive at all and I've already quit drinking and I'm actually happier because of it). Of course, I cannot express this because I am in 'denial'.

Anger and resentment. No that is not a 2x4 b/c I FELT EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!

Let's get this "letting go" and "detaching" stuff cleared up. While others here post that, and that IS the ultimate objective, you are in NO mental state to detach from anything. Trust me here.

Think *damage contol*. Leave your W alone but be there when she needs you. Don't talk about the relationship. Don't fish. STFU and observe. STFU and listen.

Easier said than done. I did not follow that advice. I talked too much. I made things worse. I missed opportunities to reconnect.

She agrees with AA but not when they disagree with her thinking and actions?!? That's like saying you are a christian but the bible is full of s***!!!

She is only trying to discount your positive actions, not AA. If you were in her place you would do the same.

know that the road to recovery is a long one but I'm so far ahead of where they think I am at it's not even funny. I am well aware of MANY of the mistakes I have made, I know how to fix them. I know why I did them. I know what I'm capable of.

Really? You know everything? Sounds like anger and self-right here. Sounds like that little boy is running the show.

Honest, permanent change takes time, (baby steps) especially changes in thinking. I actually was feeling pretty good about myself and our relationship since August. W can't see it because of her state of mind

Are you changing for you or b/c you want W to respond? That was my mistake. It is all her fault? Little boy says he is changing and I should get the ice cream. What does the man say?

(she needs IC) and current counselor cannot either (how much can a person honestly know after only a few 1 hour biased sessions). They both think I just started the recovery process but I've already come alot further than they think and if I argue otherwise they just say that I'm in 'denial' and I'm just a 'dry drunk'.

So SHE needs IC? And this is the second post where you know more than everyone else. Yes, that was a 2x4 - could not help it b/c I said the same things: WHY will she not try???????????????

I guess if I do decide to stay that I propose this to her:

1) I'm staying and it's NOT because I'm 'not considering her needs'.
2) I'm staying because I believe we can accomplish the same goal without either of us moving out right now, if I honor her other needs (make myself scarce & continue working on myself).
3) When she's home I'll stay in another room and she can pretend I'm not there if she wants.
4) I'll sleep on the couch if she wants.
5) I'll find my own transportation.
6) No more R talk unless she wants to bring it up.
7) It will save us both money.
8) She can move out whenever she wants but I hope she doesn't.
9) Everyone will benefit (kids especially) if I do things correctly, even if our marriage is unfixable.
10) I start DB'ing HARD - won't tell her this I'll just start doing it.

Anything wrong with any of this?

How about "I am staying b/c my family is my life". Nothing more. State that and STFU.

She said f*** the new counselor, she didn't want nothing to do with it (The alien demon possessed woman comes out now).

If I had a dollar for every *alien* sighting. She is NOT an alien, my friend. We use that to rationalize this madness. She is hurt. Deeply. She wants a real family, with a white picket fence around it. She feels you let her down.

She is hurt. Deeply. How do you treat someone who is hurt? Especially someone you love? Do you call them an alien?

I did. I was wrong. Don't you be.

Okay, I can go on bu this is getting too long.

A few last points:

If she is seeing another man that is to stroke her damaged ego. Nothing more. That shows you how hurt she is.

Repeat: real men don't snoop.

OM is not the problem - look deeper.

Glad you will not send that letter.

And you want to have a "SERIOUS" discussion. Be my guest. I will come pick up the pieces.

Last point: I fuc*ed up. I see so many positives in you stitch. This can work. Succeed where I failed.

You don't know me but I always give these words to other men I care about:

Strength and Honor.

Strong to do the right thing even if it hurts YOU and Honor to ALWAYS do the right thing EVERY time.

Strength and Honor.