WAW staying, I'm leaving to give her space..

[Virtually_Handsome]

First, I'll say listen to COG and AmyC. They've been through, and seen a lot. They are not making stuff up.

Second, I must admit to not reading every word, as I do have other plans for the day! And I also admit to not being expert, but I've been reading and thinking about a lot of this stuff for a long time, and I have been getting a feel for what's a good idea, and what's a bad idea.

So, here come some 2x4's!

First, I think you have to get past some denial issues. You were drunk when you wrecked the car, but you didn't wreck the car because you were drunk? Doesn't fly, even if the car was sitting still, and it really wasn't your fault. You just can't mitigate it that way. It sounds to me like you are still trying to duck the responsibility, and that's what it has sounded liek to her, too! Then you say you didn't really snoop! So what is calling unknown numbers, doing a reverse phone number lookup, and trying to find out about a person's job? There's no way around it, you snooped. Given those two items, I wonder if there isn't some degree of denial about your responsibility for the trouble your marriage is in. It's totally understandable, but the more you can realize your part, the better your chnace of doing something about it.

Then second thing I noticed in reading through these posts is an almost complete focus on her, and very little on you. Her rings, her moods, her phone, etc., etc., etc. There is only one person you can control in this situation, and it is not her.

The moving out question is a tough one. Usually I would say it was a bad idea, but with you job situation, and transportation, I can see it bing very hard not to. Also, once you have committed to it, backing out of it seems to me that it might be a very aggressive move. What I think you have to do is make it clear that you are doing it because of the house arrest, and that you WILL be moving back into the house afterwards. I don't know your state laws, but I think you will want to make certain that you don't lose any rights to the house, etc., or any standing in the marriage (abanonment and such) by leaving. That would change things.

When you come back, you might have to consider the living arrangements in the house. Living in the same room migh be a bad idea, but you need to do better than the couch. Anyway, that's a bridge to be crossed later.

On the affair and snooping.....there's one question you have to answer. No one can answer it for you. If she is having an affair, are you going to file for divorce? If not, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by snooping, and obsessing over what she's doing, or not doing. That's because it doesn't change your course of action. Remember, the affair is NOT the cause of you current troubles. I think that's pretty clear. 'Using' any information you get from snooping is absolutely guaranteed to drive her further away. In some ways the less you know the better. Some people will say that this position makes you weak, and used, but this isn't a contest where there is a winner and a loser. you are not trying to beat her!

I'm not saying at all that she's right in all this, but here's one more thought I got while reading this. Somewhere along you mentioned how much she has hurt you in the past 2 months, and how unfair it is. Remember, from her current perspective, you've been hurting here for a large part of 16 years, and I'm she she thinks that's pretty unfair. Again, I'm not saying that her perspective is right, but it is what she is feeling. You can disagree with the rationale behind the feelings, but the feelings are real.

The mortgage....having your name off the mortgage can't hurt you at all, that's the debt side of the equation. You just can't sign your name off the deed. Of course, check with a lawyer to make sure. If things do get to the point of splitting assests, even in separation, make sure you have good legal advice. Some things that seem obvious are not!

I know there were other thoughts I had. Here's one.....GAL does not mean flirting with the pretty young things! That's called being disrespectful to them, your wife and yourself! I think you were joking, but there have been cases around here...... Anyway, GAL is doing things to improve yourself, for yourself. It could be a hooby, a class, a sport, working out, almost anything.

Anyway, for now, what can you do?

Truly understand the part you played in this. You were a provider for years, but I think you were not a husband and father. In this area, I unfortunately have some experience. I'm still working on understanding it, but I think the point is that there were things we should have been doing that we didn't realize were important.

Strengthen yourself. The obsessive, almost panicky you is most likely not very attractive to you W. Stay sober. Don't talk about it, just do it. It sounds like you have agood start, but I think it will take more than a couple months for this to be a permanent change.

Be ready for the long haul. This is almost certainly going to take many months, more likely more than a year, two, or more, to fully and completely resolve. Even in the best case I think it is months before things even move in a positive direction.

Remember that you can't control your wife. But also remember that she can't control you. You are responsible for your actions, she is responsible for her's. And, teo wrongs do not make a right.

And, listen to COG and AmyC....

Good luck,
Jeff

[Daz_Con]

I have the same thing with the vasectomy, but I did it for my W two weeks before she left me!! Not to happy with that, but life is what it is. Good luck with you sitch!! Happy holidays!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Jabrwok,

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.


"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"


He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.


And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!


One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.


"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

A part of me already likes you for your screen name. It was a gamer tag I used to use in FPS.

Amy C who just posted to you actually sent a call out on the Mid Life Crisis Board for some assitance.

I am not sure you are going to want the advice.

And actually I am going to conflict with AMY C's idea of not moving out.

It seems to me that your wife simply does not trust you. Do you have a history of saying one thing but doing another? It seems that your wife might think so.

Right now, not moving out would be more of the same. Sorry to say.

That letter is a horrible idea.
I'll break down why, but if you REALLY must send it...
: ) REMOVE THE CAPITAL LETTERS. They are just words you want to stress and think she absolutely has to hear, just like I did.

1) You have every reason to be unhappy an angry about how I treated you over the past few years, it was wrong and you deserve better.

You do not need to give her any more ammo.

2) If I knew how you really felt about everything, I would have done things differently. I never wanted to make you feel like you weren't #1.

its your fault for not keeping me informed.

3) I am agreeing to move out because we BOTH need some time and space to figure out what is going to make each other happy and I NEED to become the better person I know I am. I'm doing this for myself as much as I'm doing it for you.

I may be moving out, but I want you to see that I will be changing.

4) I want a fresh start. A 'do-over' in our relationship. Things won't be the way they have been regardless of how they turn out.

if something is obvious, there is no need to say 'obvious' But this is also about your wants. And working on your marriage with her.

5) My feelings have changed for you as well as myself, just like you said yours did for me.

you hurt me, I want to hurt you, this isn't just about you, so there

6) I CAN be happy without you but I WANT to be happy with you. I WANT you to have what you deserve, happiness.

you come off very needy there and more or less say that you will be her happiness

7) When you think about me, try to think happy thoughts, about the good memories, positive things. It wasn't ALL bad all of the time.

needy

8) You THOUGHT that I didn't feel any love for you. I KNOW you don't feel any love for me.

Telling someone what they think is a great way to pi44 them off

9) Counseling and therapy will benefit both of us. Let me know if and when you feel comfortable enough to go with me.

if and when? How about just 'if', very controlling.

10) If you want to hang out with me, talk not fight, or just go have some fun together again, feel free to let me know. I would like that.

she wants her space, but your reminder her that if she doesn't you'll be happy to hang around her.

11) I am proud of you, I think you are beautiful, I believe in you. I hope that someday you can feel that way about me.

Are you really? Telling her she is beautiful doesn't really help you right now. Do you really believe in her and her decisions right now? the last sentence is really needy


Ultimately do not send that letter.

You said you were going to move out, and if she is having trust issues with you and/or you suffer from saying one thing and doing another, sadly now is not the time to be even more inconsistent.

When it comes to talking about the future or your relationship with her, STFU. At least wait until you get the DB book and read up on it.

Talking with her right now is NOT working out for you.

[Virtually_Handsome]

Right, I forgot the letter. Don't send the letter. What she needs to know, she already knows.

Jeff

[jab]

Wow!

Thanks everyone! I won't send the letter. I'm continuing my move but do plan on coming back after a few months. I need time to figure some things out and it will give me time to do that.

Once again, I'm going to digest all this advice and take it seriously.

I think I can do everything you are saying but there's one thing....

I feel like W and I need to have a SERIOUS discussion tonight or tomorrow. I would like to find out where she stands at the moment. I want to try and validate some of her feelings and let her know where I stand before I go. I know it's probably against the DB rules but I feel like I need to do this. If the conversation starts going south I'll just end it. This doesn't mean that I'll bring up the stuff I found out over the past few days but I almost feel like I have to tell her that I know more than she thinks (I don't have to divulge the details).

[theforlornhope]

JAB, welcome to the best place to be in a bad situation. I'm pretty new here still, but your sit is almost identical to mine. I'd like to share a couple of things with you. Just my 2c.

FWIW, I disagree with you moving out for a couple of reasons. First, if she wants the Sep or D, then she can move. R-wise, this is a step towards D, and it is hers to make. If you're not drinking anymore, then there is no reason for you to go. Second, this hurts your standing in both custody and property settlement decisions later if there is a D.

If you are considering not moving out because of a possible OM, you are making a mistake. This is equivilant to planning to control her.

Forget about this. You cannot stop this or influence this. If she is going to date, have an EA, or have a PA, IT IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL.

Don't snoop. Period. You will only find things that hurt you, and half of it won't be true anyway. I know exactly how hard this is. Show your strength here.

I keep thinking to myself that I cannot do anything to stop W's actions right now.

Until you internalize this, you can't start to detach.

You can only change yourself.

Sending that letter is pushing. You've already made it clear where you stand. Unless she asks, or it comes up in MC, leave it alone.

Take a look at how similar some of the replies to you are re: OM, Snooping, etc.

The ride does smooth out with time, and detachment. It is going to get easier to take.

[Virtually_Handsome]

Wow!


I feel like W and I need to have a SERIOUS discussion tonight or tomorrow. I would like to find out where she stands at the moment. I want to try and validate some of her feelings and let her know where I stand before I go. I know it's probably against the DB rules but I feel like I need to do this. If the conversation starts going south I'll just end it. This doesn't mean that I'll bring up the stuff I found out over the past few days but I almost feel like I have to tell her that I know more than she thinks (I don't have to divulge the details).

Before you do this think very carefully. What possible good comes from it? She knows where you stand, right? And she knows what she is or isn't doing. You dropping hints about it can only let her KNOW that you are invading her privacy (in her mind). To me this conversation would be another attempt at (1)trying to control her, and (2) making sure she knows it's her fault. (That probably comes across a bit harsh, but that's what she is going to see.) As far as where she stands, what do you want to know? The only reason she hasn't pulled the trigger already is because it is probably pretty scary. Do you need to hear it from her again?


Also, how fair would it be of you to start this type of conversation, and then stop it if it goes south? I'd say if you start it (and I would advise in pretty stong terms that it is not a good idea) you have to ride it out to the end.

The only conversation involving the relationship I think I would have at all before you leave is to say that you are moving out in order to best comply with the conditions of your house arrest. You hope that this will also give her the time and space she has been asking for. I think you shoudl also state the date you intend to move back in, but I have a nagging feeling that might be a bit too controlling right now. I think by saying you are doing it for the house arrest you are telling her it don't see it as open ended, without being confrontational about it. I'd like to see what Amy, COG, and Jack think on that.

By the way, as I said before, I agree with Jack. At this point I think you have to move out.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I feel like W and I need to have a SERIOUS discussion tonight or tomorrow. I would like to find out where she stands at the moment. I want to try and validate some of her feelings and let her know where I stand before I go. I know it's probably against the DB rules but I feel like I need to do this. If the conversation starts going south I'll just end it. This doesn't mean that I'll bring up the stuff I found out over the past few days but I almost feel like I have to tell her that I know more than she thinks (I don't have to divulge the details).

Tell you what, On Thursday when you realize just how bad this went, I promise not to say I told you so.

Tomorrow night:

STFU!!!!!!!

Hey, there is nothing magical that you are going to say to make her change her mind, to open her eyes, to make her understand. There is no magic bullet or quick fix.

You do not need anything and the answers yout think you REALLY REALLY want she isn't going to give you. All you are going to do is confront her and rile her up and pi$$ her off, and ACTUALLY make it easier for her.

I feel like...I need...I would like...I want...but I feel like...I almost feel like I have to tell...

This will go very badly for you.

Just cowboy up, and STFU.

Chicks actually strong silent types, not needy talkative types.
Hopefully the day to talk will come, but you don't have the tools or dettachment to talk in a good way at the moment.
Your are going to be pure emotion.

It will go wrong.

PS - for the record please tell me that you have dumped someone before. Please tell me that they tried to keep you around, because if you have, then you might have a clue what your NEEDS are doing to your wife.

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

jaBRWork - you are ignoring the rules.

This is not about what YOU need. Focus, focus, focus. You are to keep HER pace - maybe even lag a tiny bit behind her.

You are to focus on being a better man and a better father. That will make you a better husband and her best option.

[AmyC]

You are to focus on being a better man and a better father. That will make you a better husband and her best option.

That's a great statement!