I"m in agony here...

[saffie]

bombadier,

I also felt at times it would be a relief if my H went and had an A , (though I never actually said that to him)- I though it would just take the pressure off. When he did it hurt like hell and the scars are long lived and rear their head when you least expect it. I am so sorry you are hurting.

Saffie

[bombardier50]

Saffie and Realjourney, you have made me feel a lot better just to hear the other side of the story. I know this is what's going on, and both of you, along with my DB coach, and my parents, have told me the same thing. My wife is beautiful, a great friend, and an excellent partner. Right now, there's just no sex. I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater over that one thing. Despite my pain and feelings of loss, I think I can be patient enough until she comes around. Short story: a few days ago my wife read the first chapter of SSM. When she finished, she was crying. I asked her why she was crying and she said that she so strongly identified with "those poor LD women." I didn't really think that was why she was crying, so I asked my DB coach what she thought. My coach told me she was crying because she now understood how I felt, but couldn't do anything about it. So right now there is this wall between us, and maybe someday it will break down. There have been big improvements in the past week...she is my friend again. Six weeks ago, she was ready to walk, and so was I. So I'm counting my blessings. Meanwhile, I listen to a lot of music and cry in private.

[saffie]

bombadier,

You sound like a truly loving and compassionate H. I am sure your W is not doing this on purpose and knowing that it is causing you hurt and pain as well will only be making it harder for her. From what you say I do not believe your W is having an A. The fact that her sister went through this too makes me think it is very biological.

It's just an idea, (and I can't remember if I have said this to you before), but why not try saying to her that you have a ban on full intercourse until SHE is ready to intitiate . Until then you would like to show your love for one another just by cuddling and being physically close - by doing things together that make you laugh and remember why you love each other so much - revisit some good times from memory lane.

I suppose I sort of liken it in my head to what you would do if you gave birth to a healthy child. You love them and nurture them and do all you can for them. If then for any reason - be it at accident or illness - they became handicapped and could no longer function properly you wouldn't dump them - you would find a new way of interacting and you would continue to nurture and love them.

I think what is happeneing with your W is the same, but the big plus in your sitch is that this should not be a permanenet state of affairs. I recommend you read as much as you can about the female menopause and educate yourself so that you can empathise. Your W may not want to discuss any of it and you have to respect that but it will give you much more of an idea of what you are dealing with and the time scales involved.

Ultimately your W may need to seek medical help but she has to do it for her. I know it is so very hard for you - I really appreciate that - but when one is scared and finds it embarrasing to maybe talk to others about these things one has to reach a certain level of desperation before being able to seek help.

Into all of this you have to add into the mix that for her the menopause takes away part of her biological reason for existing. OK, she probably didn't want anymore children, but there is a massive difference between not wanting something and not being able to have something. Also it is the next step for a woman in the ageing process. It is a very complex matter. And like many of these female hormone based behaviours that go on in a females life, the poor male has to stand on the side line and watch with helplessness.

You take care - you sound a good, kind man.

(As an aside, my H once said to me jokingly, it would be much cheaper to just go and buy himself an upmarket sex doll - she would never say no, always be available, and wouldn't try maxing out his credit card!!!!! My answer was that she wouldn't know when to make the appropriate ohh's and aah's and moans and groans - nothing makes up for that!!!!!). Plus she wouldn't laugh at his lame jokes.

Saffie

[bombardier50]

Saffie, thank you for your insight and kind encouragement. Everything you're are saying makes perfect sense. I do feel frustrated and helpless, standing here on the sidelines, waiting for her to decide to get some help. She suffers from insomnia, which has come on strong in the past several months. I'm sure it's hormonal, but she kept blaming me for keeping her awake. I felt so much guilt from this that I moved out of the bedroom, a move I now really regret. Interestingly, after I moved out of the bedroom, her sleep did not improve. So, here I am with this poor menopausal insomniac who works as a retail women's clothing store manager, and it's the holiday season. One night last week, she was talking about her insomnia, and I asked her very gently if she thought she might be experiencing menopause. Her answer was a quick and curt "NO".

So, Saffie, since you're an intelligent, expressive woman...explain this to me. Last week, on her day off, she asked me if I wanted to photograph her nude.

That's right. Nude.

I'm an amateur photographer, and I've shot nudes before, but never my wife. I thought, hmmmm, what does this mean? Of course, being a guy in my lonely state, I thought this might be a prelude to something else. I was really excited, and relieved. "Finally!" I thought, she's coming around!

So away we went. She posed, I snapped away. She is a beautiful woman, nice body, great face. And I would look through the lens and I just ached for her so bad. And finally, after an hour of this torture, I kissed her very gently on the neck and asked her to please make love to me. Her expression changed instantly. She pulled on her robe and sat up on the edge of the bed and said that she just didn't feel like it and if she just did it to meet my needs, she would "feel like a whore". I'm sure you can imagine how I felt.

I downloaded the pictures to the computer and then couldn't bear to look at them. A few hours later, she asked me if I had worked on her pictures yet, and I said no, it was a little too hard for me right now. She came up to me and gave me a big, long hug. That's the first time she's hugged me in months.

That's not all. So just yesterday, she tells me that she has a few minutes before work, and could I take some more nudes of her, this time in her fur coat? I didn't know what to do. If I said no, I was afraid I'd hurt her feelings. If I said yes, I was afraid I'd hurt mine. I took the pictures anyway, and then I just left the room and let her get dressed. So now I have two sets of pictures on my computer that I can't bear to look at.

So, what the hell was that?

[Lillieperl]

Wow. That is odd. Almost seems like deliberate torture.

The first thing that popped into my head is that the pictures are for someone else.

Did you ask her why she wanted the pictures taken? What she planned to do with them? I think that would have been reasonable to ask.

Has she asked for prints? Or is she going to access them on the computer, possibly to email?

[saffie]

Bombadier,

My best guess is she wants to see proof that she is sexy still. That she is a woman. Sometimes however much your loving husband tells you that, it is hard to believe, and you also think maybe they are telling you that just because they want sex.

I know at times when my H came onto me I have told him, when he has been paying me compliments, that I didn't believe him and that as far as I was concerned at that particular time he would have found the back end of a camel attractive!!!! I know it doesn't make sense - but sometimes we women just don't see ourselves the way you do.

I really think the photo's are to prove to her that even though her ability to create life may be fading she still is an attractive woman and she wants to see that. In her mind she probably thinks you remember her as she was when you first met - not as she is now. The fact that she came back and hugged you shows that she cares; I don't believe she means to hurt you - I really think she is a lost soul at this moment. her body is frightening and confusing her.

Many women deny the menopause - they really don't want to know that it is happening. Sleepless nights are a dead give away along with the hot flushes etc.

Hang in there.

(((((((HUGS))))))))

Saffie

[rysmom]

I can definately relate to the problem of insomnia. I think this ia one of the reason me and my H started having problems a year and a half ago. H liked to go to sleep with the tv on and he would get up really early for work. I could not sleep well with the tv and the alarm because I had become a very light sleeper because of perimenopause. so I started to sleep in the guest bedroom for 5 mos. This was very bad for our M and I realize it now. He started having A in Nov '06 I think it was because of lack of sex. now it seems like he want out of our M after getting a taste of living in his own apt and living the single life. I am so sad.

[bombardier50]

Saffie,
Are you a therapist? How come everything your tell me makes sense? Your hubby is a lucky guy. I feel so bad for my girl now and I just wish she could find the strength to go to the doctor or talk to my DB coach and get some help sorting out her feelings and issues about her body. But I'm going to totally back off and just be here for her, and hope that when the fog lifts that she can find me again.

Your perspective has helped me stop feeling so sad and guilty that I did something wrong, that somehow I wasn't caring or sensitive enough. What scares me is that...how do I put this?...I'm told I'm not a bad looking guy for age 50, I guess. I keep myself in pretty good shape (after 20 years in the military, it comes naturally). In my line of work, I'm in contact with a lot of women, and some of them come on pretty strong. There are a lot of lonely people out there. In the last year, I could have had three affairs, but I didn't. I always came home...to rejection. Finding the strength to stay true when I feel so lonely and starved is the hard part...

Maybe that blowup doll isn't such a bad idea...

[bombardier50]

Rysmom,
These message boards are great, but I wish there was a way to reach through the computer and give people a hug when they really need it. I know you heart is broken, but try not to beat yourself up too much. We all make decisions that at the time seem to make sense, but later seem like huge mistakes. I've done the same thing, over and over. I wish I could go back in time and fix so much.

Please promise me you will talk to a DB coach as soon as you can. You will feel better...much better.

[rysmom]

Hi Barbiere,
How are you doing today? Do you have any kids?
Today things went pretty well. I have been detaching. My H came over to get my son to go bowling, he came in our house for a couple minutes but stood by the front door. He fixed our inflatable snow globe on the front lawn without me asking. I called my son and asked if they were going to the vitamin shoppe if they could get me vitamin C. my son said my H stopped there just for me to get it. Then they went to CVS for oatmeal and H bought me mini lights for my wreath on my front door.
H came to drop my son off but I wasnt home. my son told him I probably went ice skating. My H said "ice skating, with who?". Even though im in my 40s people tell me im attractive and I keep myself in good physical condition. Im tall and thin with blonde hair and green eyes. So I dont think i would have trouble attracting someone new if my H didnt want to be M to me anymore. But I want more than anything for our marriage to work. the o/w he had A with wasnt as attractive as me. She had a crater face and wasnt as thin or attractive as me.
Then they went to my MIL house. I went over to pick up my son and H got up right away to answer the door. He was being really nice to me. I didnt go in though. H gave me some money for the week too. I am so happy. Im feeling hopeful again. Yesterday I felt like he hated me. But he's coming around again. That is one things that the DB coach said to me, that "it seems like he comes around again very quickly, that's a good sign". Thank God!