I would have to disagree with you in principle. Being the baddest boy in the bar has a certain appeal (as long as it is perceived, not necessarily demonstrated), and that appeal is protection. Its not about being the baddest. I do not consider myself to be a bad boy. I dont cheat, steal, rape, murder, assult, or indulge in an excess of illegal activity.
When some mongols recently came in and caused problems, I was not the 'baddest boy', guaranteed. Demonstrating always gets visceral and extraordinary amounts of validation. some that perceive the potential, like to test and create situations to verify.
Many women are very attracted to rescue workers and many are attracted to the guy with the money.
I agree with this completely. yet lots of firefighter/lifeguards/EMT's are sex starved. *headscratch*
Yours is a true statement yet I still maintain, desire is not created by giving protection.
Quote:
Men who are sexually succesful are not rescuers/providers.
This is also a true statement. They are not exclusionary.
Desire is not about having. The have's do not respect what they have, they desire what they have not. For example, HAP is horny. Hap has a H who has money. That doesnt make her desire him . I am more fiscally sound then OM or x's current H. That didnt do anything for her emotionally. I was very smug about the fact that I was filling all of Dr. Harleys 'needs' and x still started her affair. It helped soothe the hole in my chest. Not.
They are seeing something, but I dont think most people know what it is or want to acknowledge... I dont want to argue about something we most likely agree on, nor do I want to spell it out, but Stallions dont acquire herds by providing protection. In addition to him doing what it takes to acquire a herd, I dont think the mares feel 'protected' when he is nipping and kicking and pushing them to a new pasture. In fact they get quite testy about it before giving in. Kings dont maintain harems by providing protection -for the sake of the woman. Its not their wealth that gives them choice. They didnt amass their wealth by protecting. Its a by-product of something else. Selfishness is trustable. magnanimity, altruism and philanthropy are not. People are either suspicious of it, or assign some other motive to it. We've seen that play out here.
My first thoughts were "It sounds like it was written from a 'Nice guy' point of view" :-)
funny. Thank you. I try. Personally, I dont think that is a bad thing to be. I find its pretty easy to trod over people in many differant aspects. I dont respect it or find it morraly acceptable. I like to give choice as well. No. I take that back. I love giving choice. Its the pysch healthy way to treat OP. I dont know about succesful, but succes is all perception.
I say it from my experience, and observation. during my sexually abundant marriage, I didnt play provider. She carried her own weight. When she didnt-- I didnt pick up her slack. I mentioned playing rescue the damsel with my first fiancee. I learned. That dynamic (rescuer) was not part of our R or she would never have made into my house. (frankly I still marvel about how she pulled that off.) didnt do it again till x's affair. wont ever fall for it again.
However I can also see how x was subject to feeling 'undesired' in our R or at least confabulated herself into thinking that.
Do you remember when cobra talked about taking the right sort of girl home to mama? I couldnt relate at all. I have taken all sorts of women around my mother, she hasnt ever said anything derogatory about them. She does like to warn them about me, 'You know he is not serious' 'dont listen to him, he is just being mean' or berate me in front of them. 'Would you be nice to her'....
Ive also been recently thinking about the differance between men who act needy (and idgit women) and men who actually need a woman ( and you couldnt pry her away from .. no matter how bad he treats her)
I dont need a woman, (this is even more true then when I first met x) and they act very skittish. When I first got cuckolded and divorced and felt like I really did need someone the attention I received was significantly differant in its nature.
Well that meandered.
I have no argument with the fact Women NEED protection. None. My argument is --Giving protection does not cause sexual desire. It is not the underlying behavior that causes sexual desire.
Its no small calculation that goes on when a woman factors her decision between protection and desire.
Id like to ask SG about her scientific testing of her H and their first date.
p.s. kett women are not socialized into wanting alpha males. Its not a choice or learned behavior. the ones who are hesitant, are simply hesitant in their ability to hold them or smart enough to know its not their job. I enjoyed the rest of your post though. very much.
He asserts that the " woman in process"... "at her worst"... "While she may act sexually responsive and aroused, hers is a fragile interest in sex that can easily be made a low priority. Being loved, not being sexually desired, is her motive". (p54)
Of additional interest, he claims that women who consider themselves "in touch" via feministic qualities, are actually out-of-touch in many ways, one of them is particularly interesting; "She is out-of-touch with her sexism, which is every bit as intense as men's objectification of women. Men are attractive, sexy and desirable to her to the degree that they are powerful and successful. A man is a success object, who is attractive to the extent that he can be a rescuer, a protector, and a provider. None of these necessarily have any connection to his qualities as a person-the thing that most women believe is the major priority." (p48)
Anyone have an opinion?
He's only half right at best. Women want to pair-bond with men who signal protect/provide and are therefore frequently "willing" to have sex with them. Women actually "want" to have sex with men who signal "dominance". Also, women are frequently romantically attracted to men who are "pretty" or signal vulnerability. Thus the stereotypical scene in which our hero "protects" the girl by punching out the jerk who bothered her (and thereby signaling dominance) and then lets her tend his wounds (thereby signaling vulnerability).
I currently consider myself to be a post-feminist neo-primitive who is very much in touch with her inherent sexism. However, I think being self-aware is very helpful because it allows me to, for instance, choose the flavor of "dominance" I prefer or consider what level of "protection" makes me feel safe vs. suffocated. I should make it clear that I do date or consider having sex with men for reasons that just make them good people. However, I find that it is really hard to want to have sex with a man if he doesn't do SOMETHING to signal dominance. I do my part by trying to keep my monkey at the level of "cute" that is just below "annoying". I also decided that although I still feel it is morally reprehensible to "play a man from bunny", it is alright to "let a man play your bunny" which is probably why I get petted a lot lately. And, of course, I exhibit great empathy for basic male objectification needs by dressing to emphasize my bust-waist-hip ratios.
Eventually, I feel like I will figure out how to solve my dilemma which is due to the fact that my primary love language is Physical Touch but I want to be loved for my Pilgrim Soul which is not physically touchable or even made of the stuff that makes people want to touch you but it's all pretty tricky.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
But are you saying you married your H during the "honeymoon" phase and then realized it was not really love? .....so there was no love and no sex?
Everyone who initiates divorce makes some sort of rationalization along this line LFL, I was too young, I didnt know myself I didnt know what I was doing blah blah
Im not sure why they dont just own it. Probably too much ego conflict. Who I am-vs.- Who I want to be seen as. Makes the triune brain spit out gobblegook.
probably the same ones, who were yelling in indignation at their parents 'I AM A GROWN UP' 'I CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICES' snort.
being loved requires intimacy.
And being intimate requires what?
Sharing of self, and acceptance of other with eyes open.
There are lots of situation that force intimacy with another person to happen-- with out trust. Marriage counselors do in fact advocate not trusting your mate.
Sorry to be picking on you, bud,
No. Your not. Youve been itching to do this here for a long time now. So. Lets do this. Crack open a cold one and grab your 'dont take it personal shield.'
How's that working for you in your current LTR?
Do you recommend I get into a LTR? Why? If she doesnt show any capability of discernment (or a level of intelligence that I find acceptable) on day 1,2, 3 or 10 why should I keep going? Maybe she only wants some sexual validation, should I chase after her and change her mind? That has me laughing till I cry, just thinking about it... [bf on bended knee] listen I know you just wanted to use me last night, but your an extraordinary woman, I can tell because you said I have nice hair and look like Matthew McConaughey, (I think your rose colored glasses are smudged, here let me wipe them for you, yes I know thats nice of me, I like animals too) and since I need to be in a LTR to improve myself... hahahaha
Do you recommend this LTR with just anyone, or should I show some discretion-- since at some point I will likely be contending with remarks like this At the very least, HE should have known better Since you want to play matchmaker matchmaker bring me a match find me a find catch me a catch, night after night....,
Since you are using LTR as a benchmark, when you have been in one that has succesfully gone past the 'working out our parental figure issues from our youth' stage..(which I am really not interested in getting married for that ) .. say 8 9 years and some kids from now, you can throw that trash about LTR at me. Oh wait. nope you cant do that. In the meantime your intermittantly dating someone from a different city/state so save the lectures on intimacy. Dont come to the playground with that weak ass sh!t. You prefer serial monogamy. I dont. I would never 'expect' a woman to fill my sex needs. The odd one out may be able to wear me out in those hours long go rounds they like to have occasionally, but day in day, thats reallly rare. If she wants to and is capable, great. If not. thats cool too. Frankly the idea of MWithoutC sounds like a differant version of sexual and emotional dictation to me. in times the past the words PWhipped would have come to mind to describe that scenario. but hey if its agreed upon...its all good. Marriage is a commitment.
woo wee did you just open a can of whup ass.
Yes... well apparently my version of commitment is different then most womens, since last I read 75% of divorce is filed by women. My version of commitment doesnt include emotional vagaries like, 'my feelings were hurt, he said mean things' or escape clauses like 'if this doesnt work out' . I figure out ahead of time if they are an addict or if their idiosyncracy is something I cant live with. I dont plan on changing them.
I know that 75% of marital problems are not with men. Maybe women desire serial monogamy more then anyone told them or men. Being a 'nice guy' beta, etc is no justification. Throwing that out there as an excuse, is just giving more princess passes. Every man is a mix of attributes. A woman will find your weak spot. Most will try and stick sharp burning hot objects in there to see if it will get a reaction. Maybe there trying to cauterize the weak area. I dont know why. keeps genetics diverse at any rate. The scar tissue isnt very pretty, but I do appreciate my inability to give a damn when prodded.
Some female Dr's need to come out with books like .... 'The way of the Superior Woman' and "No more Mrs. Ungrateful B!tch ' or maybe 'No more Mrs. Whiny Nag' would be more palatable? 'Learn to talk to your girlfriends, Your husband is not a woman' would probably be good, etc, so they can work on themself and stop trying to fix there man. If he was broken, you shouldnt have said yes to his ASK.
If marriage is a commitment, why do I have to tend the fences? and why was I lectured on that? *tap tap tap* (rhetorical) SG implied she tends her own fences, but explicitly told me that the affair was "inevitible"...*headscratch* does that mean she has had one, or that she is going to have one at some point? Inquiring minds want to know... I know, I know, the whole sexual fidelity thing is soooo blown out of proportion by us men.
That is my most favorite conversation in the whole wide world by the way.... the one that starts with the accusation that I am a commitment phobe. snort.
So... add commitment to the list of things I dont expect them to feel like me. I understand their version of it is differant then mine. Fine. I dont accept the exchange they want for their version of commitment, and I am not able to force mine on them. were even. Its more fun then being equal since I dont really want to cuddle like bunkeys either. In case you dont remember, x adulterated and then divorced me. I never signed anything. I know, I know... she was done before she cheated, and then changed her mind... and then changed it again...or something like that....hold on let me look outside, I want to see what the weather is right now...
Smoking is a habit Its an addiction, but I dont want to go there and compare that. I dont like being controlled and thus Im really anti anything that smacks of addiction. Id rather pluck out my eyeball with a toothpick... no... I would scoop my own heart out with a childs plastic shovel and flush it down the toilet rather then cave to an addiction.
If you bother to find out what they are... yes. thats one of my weak areas. not bothering to understand.
anyways I tried that once. too much like trying to push a horse from behind. No thanks, I still have the stink of shat on me. Its much more productive to know where I want to go and head there. I prefer riding or walking out front with the reins. If the horse takes the reins back and gallops away, (it is strong enough after all) I still have a destination to get too, and not the time or energy to run all over gods creation, after something I cant catch on foot.
Quote:
but it's all pretty tricky
Amen sister.
see ya next time on the playground corri (If you think I am mad... your really mistaken. I find all of this quite humorous.)
being loved requires intimacy. there is no intimacy with rose colored glasses on, because you arent seeing the flaws.
Who said anything about rose-colored glasses? Intimacy and love go hand in hand, yes. But sometimes it's ugly BF. H and I have been through all sorts of ugly behavior and will continue to go through it in the future. There are No rose-colored glasses. Yet the love it there. Is it a complete love? Heck no. We are missing some pieces of the puzzle. But like you said, it is our Choice to remain in this M and love each other how each of us can. I know you wouldn't do it BF, but that is you. You made a point in a later post that you need Control. I think that is where you are going to be stuck. You cannot control another person, even as alpha and attractive as you may be. You either accept it or move on. Lots of people choose to move on. Do I trust my H? Not really. Does he trust me? Very doubtful. And that's ok. I wouldn't have given that answer years ago, but now...I do. I have to if I want this M to survive. I don't have control. Neither does he. We either stick this out together...or we don't. Scary but true.
And I still want/need desire, dammit. There in lies the rub.
That is my most favorite conversation in the whole wide world by the way.... the one that starts with the accusation that I am a commitment phobe. snort.
I think you are almost the opposite of a commitment-phobe. Commitment-phobes are people who can't decide whether they want to commit or not. Commitment-phobes frequently cheat or overlap relationships or want to "stay friends" when a relationship ends etc. The last few friendly e-mails my lover NG sent me were under the subject heading "All Catalyst but No Resin". I set him free by sending him an e-mail that ended "I think you are a lovely man with a generous spirit. Take care of yourself. Your Friend, Mojo." and I was speaking the truth. My sister is a terrible commitment-phobe but nevertheless a kind and lovely person. Of course, people aren't necessarily inherently commitment-phobic but sometimes just go through commitment-phobic phases, like me, maybe? Of course, I am under societal pressure to be commitment-oriented because I am female. If I don't at least try to be a serial monogamist terrible people will imply that I am slutty. Plus, all the men that I have been sexual with since my separation get all protective and cuddly towards me and mess with my bonding chemicals. Of course, that doesn't mean that I want a guy to kick me out of bed and call me a cab either. Anyways, my D16 burned George Michaels' "Faith" on a mixed- CD she made for my car and even though I chuckle at the irony that George Michael is singing the song, I am struck by the line "when love comes down without devotion". What is the difference between devotion and love? What is the difference between devotion and commitment? Please let me know if you discover the answer, little (excuse, me, younger) brother.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I don't think he is a commitment phobe either. But he clearly needs to be in control and that is just not always possible in a R/M, especially when you are dealing with a strong-willed woman, who he is clearly attracted to, so......
I am late to this party, but here's my quick 2 cents: I believe, in the long run, it makes no difference if a man is alpha or beta, if a woman is a feminist or traditionalist, or any other combination. These factors are important in the beginning, to faciliate attraction. There may be universal laws, but ultimately we're all individuals and have varied interests/reactions, and our preferences can and do change over time. For the long term, it's all about attitude, the willingness to want to make things work. Why some people remain stuck while others can see a bigger picture, to me, is the real mystery.
But are you saying you married your H during the "honeymoon" phase and then realized it was not really love? .....so there was no love and no sex?
Everyone who initiates divorce makes some sort of rationalization along this line LFL, I was too young, I didnt know myself I didnt know what I was doing blah blah
Im not sure why they dont just own it. Probably too much ego conflict. Who I am-vs.- Who I want to be seen as. Makes the triune brain spit out gobblegook.
probably the same ones, who were yelling in indignation at their parents 'I AM A GROWN UP' 'I CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICES' snort.
Ooohhhh... nice one BF. That one almost hit my knees. How 'bout bringing it up just a bit, bud. I like 'em high and inside.
I spent too many years in counseling and what not to shove off blame onto someone else, thanks. LFL asked me a question, to which I responded honestly. I didn't blame his lack of insight for the D, nor my youth for the D.
Quote:
Quote:
being loved requires intimacy.
Quote:
And being intimate requires what?
Sharing of self, and acceptance of other with eyes open.
And why would I want to share my self and accept another with my eyes wide open after a few beers and a charming smile... and not think that was the most naive and self-delusory thing I had ever tried to pull on myself?
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry to be picking on you, bud,
No. Your not. \:\) Youve been itching to do this here for a long time now. So. Lets do this. Crack open a cold one and grab your 'dont take it personal shield.'
I love it when men tell me how I feel... or better yet, tell me I'm wrong after I've stated how I feel.
Quote:
Quote:
How's that working for you in your current LTR?
Do you recommend I get into a LTR?
Nice deflection. My question was to your comment re:
Quote:
Ive said the above before, and Ill say it again. I just want her running hot. My actions back it up.
So, no. Those actions clearly state you don't want an LTR, and do a fine job of avoiding them all together {nod} I get that.
Yet... you get on here saying what women want in a mate... her biggest motivation for a mate is children. For me, that may have been true at one time... but it isn't now. So what's my motivation? Tell me. You seem to know.
Quote:
If she doesnt show any capability of discernment (or a level of intelligence that I find acceptable) on day 1,2, 3 or 10 why should I keep going? Maybe she only wants some sexual validation, should I chase after her and change her mind? That has me laughing till I cry, just thinking about it... [bf on bended knee] listen I know you just wanted to use me last night, but your an extraordinary woman, I can tell because you said I have nice hair and look like Matthew McConaughey, (I think your rose colored glasses are smudged, here let me wipe them for you, yes I know thats nice of me, I like animals too) and since I need to be in a LTR to improve myself... hahahaha
eye roll... where's my tissue... poor, poor, BF...
Quote:
Do you recommend this LTR with just anyone, or should I show some discretion-- since at some point I will likely be contending with remarks like this At the very least, HE should have known better
A fact is a fact. He should have. I should have, too. There. 50-50 split now. Are you done being bitter for my xH? And again, I don't recommend you for an LTR with anyone right now. But... you've got it figured out and are doing fine on your own, so why do you keep asking my opinion?
Quote:
Since you are using LTR as a benchmark
No, I'm not. Guess you weren't reading carefully. I was using respect, honesty and trust as benchmarks. That typically takes some time to develop and test... at least for me... you... obviously know very quickly.
Quote:
when you have been in one that has succesfully gone past the 'working out our parental figure issues from our youth' stage..(which I am really not interested in getting married for that ) .. say 8 9 years and some kids from now, you can throw that trash about LTR at me. Oh wait. nope you cant do that.
Wow... thought you were a girl for a minute there, what with how catty you are getting.
Quote:
In the meantime your intermittantly dating someone from a different city/state so save the lectures on intimacy. Dont come to the playground with that weak ass sh!t. You prefer serial monogamy. I dont. I would never 'expect' a woman to fill my sex needs. The odd one out may be able to wear me out in those hours long go rounds they like to have occasionally, but day in day, thats reallly rare. If she wants to and is capable, great. If not. thats cool too. Frankly the idea of MWithoutC sounds like a differant version of sexual and emotional dictation to me. in times the past the words PWhipped would have come to mind to describe that scenario. but hey if its agreed upon...its all good.
We weren't talking about me... this started with the comments you were making about Rs, respect and intimacy in general. Somewhere along the line you started personalizing. But... since you've brought it up... you're right in your assessment. Probably. Feel better? Af for the PWed? Dunno. Never have been myself, so it would be impossible for me to ascertain. Given that I really haven't nailed this R stuff down, I really don't know.
Quote:
I would never 'expect' a woman to fill my sex needs.
Snort. And what one woman has had a chance to?
Quote:
Quote:
Marriage is a commitment.
woo wee did you just open a can of whup ass.
Yes... well apparently my version of commitment is different then most womens, since last I read 75% of divorce is filed by women.
Oh, for God's sake. Yeah. I broke my commitment, you didn't. Okay... for the record... I don't pass Go, I don't collect my $200, I go straight to jail. You, at the end of your long, justified life, can stand in front of God and ask for a refund. You didn't sign up for any of this. I get that. K? I'm sure God will, too.
I fcked up. So do a lot of people... especially, it seems, by your stats, do women. So... I should turn in my Life Card, give up the game, throw up my hands... quit?
The rest of that crap you are spewing... that bitterness... be careful honey. It'll ruin your complexion, if not your charm.
Quote:
If marriage is a commitment, why do I have to tend the fences? and why was I lectured on that? *tap tap tap* (rhetorical) SG implied she tends her own fences, but explicitly told me that the affair was "inevitible"...*headscratch* does that mean she has had one, or that she is going to have one at some point? Inquiring minds want to know... I know, I know, the whole sexual fidelity thing is soooo blown out of proportion by us men.
Why do you have to tend fences? Because it's 50% of it is your farm. You sound like a person who gets a puppy and is actually surprised that the puppy needs feeding, watering, walking... and grows up into a dog. It actually needs some attention from you beyond what your own needs of it are. But that wasn't the deal, you say. I just wanted a puppy. Why am I the one who has to take care of it?
Because we are all fallible, and we fck up, and we hurt each other, and we cry. Fine. There is no bending with you. I'm sure you are quite the successful business man. Rs are not a business, no matter how much you'd like for it to be. It'd make it simple for you, certainly. Then you could measure all kinds of things, charts, graphs, ROI. So rail at the God's for making Rs a different game that business. Obviously, that's the one you showed up to play. K.
Quote:
Quote:
That is my most favorite conversation in the whole wide world by the way....
the one that starts with the accusation that I am a commitment phobe. snort.
I'm not sure where you are getting that from anything I've said. And really, why would you care if I thought you were one or not anyway?
Quote:
anyways I tried that once. too much like trying to push a horse from behind. No thanks, I still have the stink of shat on me. Its much more productive to know where I want to go and head there.
Ok.
Sometimes a partner who's terrified of rejection and the uncertainty of new love will choose to end a relationship very early. A person who does this is usually at an insecure time in his or her life or is still hurting from a previous rejecting relationship. By seizing the pivotal role of rejecter, you instantly gain power and relief from rejection anxiety. You also cut off the possibility of finding true intimacy.
-- The Passion Trap
But it sounds like you have it figured out on your end, for your life. I'm glad someone does. I sure as he!! don't.
Youve been itching to do this here for a long time now. So. Lets do this. Crack open a cold one and grab your 'dont take it personal shield.' 
Amen sister.