Plank removed from eye, too late for WAW? 8

[Heimlich]

PM,

Just to clarify, my W isn't acting childish. It's the childish view of love -- I just don't feel that way, I can't talk to you -- that drives me bonkers when I think about it. The sad thing is, my W has grown into the woman I always thought she could/would be -- sexy, confident, smart, funny. Thing is, she no longer wants me. The thing is, she's angry with me, deep down, but won't tell me why or let it go. She's also said that she's seen me making changes for the better and is seeing how this is hurting our girls and still won't give it a go. Tremendously frustrating, like everyone else. All that said, unless I'm posting, I generally don't think about her or what she's doing.

These aren't new emotions for me, but it does feel good to type them out now and again.

On a mini-GAL note, have finally decided what I'm going to get for my loverly plasma, 42 inch, HD TV to sit upon -- and be flanked by. The IKEA Billy bookcases and the Benno TV stand. Would prefer something a little higher-end, but it'll look good and I'll be able to reuse the bookcases down the road whenever I can afford to live in a house again. Also, finally got pictures and whatnot on the wall AND there was a Michael's custom framing coupon in the paper (finally) for a few more things I'd like to get framed. Starting to feel like home. And, all of the fish are still alive and the plants are growing (live plants, plastic aquarium plants look like shyte and are for wussies ).

BD

[Heimlich]

I did a slight slip yesterday. We were emailing back and forth about Christmas for the girls. At the end of one email, I just wrote "Love you" without thinking about it and hit send. Didn't realize until a few minutes later (been a lot frazzled with work). Exchanged a few additional emails, she didn't acknowledge it. I apologized for the slip.

Nothing major to report, but did something a little different yesterday.

W came to pick up the girls just as I was coming back in from bringing out the trash. Walked up the stairs together. She got a little ahead of me, and a little devil inside said, "what the hell." Said something like, "I've got a nearly uncontrollable urge" then reached up with both hands and squeezed her bedonkadonk and said something like, "Don't squeeze the Charmin." Didn't get mad or slap me or jump, just said that Mr. Whipple had just died. Normal idle chit-chat for a few minutes while rounding up the girls and that was it.

I've noticed over the past week that she's more likely to come into my personal space than she had been for about a month, but, nothing really to that. I think she's just a little more comfortable around me because we haven't really spoken about the non-existent us in a longer than normal bit of time. The urge to do so keeps popping up -- STRONGLY -- but with less frequency and, so far, I've managed to fight it down.

BD

[oldtimer]

Heim,

I don't really think I can say anything that will help you. But I'll give it a shot. This post is all about your tone for the last weeks, and reading between the lines. And you aren't going to like it.

You seem to be in some weird, egocentric place in which you can't see very far from what you want at a particular moment. You even seem to be telling yourself something like, "oh, I know this will hurt me and W and my R with her, but boys will be boys, and I'm just a poor little boy, can't help it, ha ha."

Can I just say this is a huge major YUCK.

As for the latest... "I did a slight slip yesterday. We were emailing back and forth about Christmas for the girls. At the end of one email, I just wrote "Love you" without thinking about it and hit send. Didn't realize until a few minutes later (been a lot frazzled with work). Exchanged a few additional emails, she didn't acknowledge it. I apologized for the slip."

FWIW, I don't buy this at all, and I doubt W does either. At this point, it doesn't even matter if it is true, given your general pattern of behavior. If I were her, i'd think you wrote the "love you" on purpose to get a reaction, to test the waters, whatever. When it didn't get the reaction you wanted, I'd think you tried yet again to get the reaction by "apologizing for the slip" which gives you another chance to point at the "love you" and say LOOK WHAT I DID, LOOK AT ME, GIVE ME ATTENTION, REACT, DO ANYTHING, I'M HERE, I'M HERE, I'M HERE. If I were her, I really can't imagine interpreting that as anything other than a manipulative, guilting stunt trying to get me to see YOUR light before the holidays. Not attactive.

W is not being immature. She does not want an R with you, so there is no need for her to work through a non-existent R with you. She does not owe you love. You are not entitled to her love. You are the one who keeps throwing tantrums in a million small ways.

As for the butt squeeze, this is about as attractive as the "accidental" tentative breast swipe during a back rub. If that makes no sense to you, I think its time for you to read GH's threads again, closely this time. I would not take "Mr. Whipple is dead," as a sign of encouragement, nor your W's pretty much ignoring it. I expect she takes a similar tactic with your kids -- ignoring unwelcome behavior so as not to inadvertently reward it and to help extinguish it by making it ineffective behavior.

I can't remember, did you start IC yet? If so, again, the whole W-violation incident could really use some introspection.

Quit trying to extract from W what she doesn't want to give. She doesn't want to share herself with you right now. She doesn't want you inserting yourself into her things (re the Thanksgiving volunteering debacle.) That is her thing. Quit trying to mark her space with your scent. It is NOT working for you at all. The more you do this, the less of an R you will have with W. Next time, she will not share her volunteering plans. She doesn't want your uninvited intrusions into her life. Again, getting a grip on the whole W-violation incident may help you get a grip on this dynamic.

But this is work for you to do ON YOURSELF, BY YOURSELF (except for IC, of course.)

One of your "little slips" is going to break your back soon.

Grow up. Be a man. Give W the space she has asked for. Quit acting as though she owes you anything. You aren't a victim in this. OM is NOT why W has a big problem with you. It is your words/actions/behaviors/sense of entitlement/victimhood that are repelling W.

All that being said, you are making progress.

This is great: "The urge to do so keeps popping up -- STRONGLY -- but with less frequency and, so far, I've managed to fight it down."

Keep it up!

[Heimlich]

FWIW, I don't buy this at all, and I doubt W does either.

No, she probably doesn't. Regardless, it was. Like occassionally I'll get off at the exit to her house when going home (2 exits before mine). When the brain is on the ol' cruise control, habit can take over. Felt like I was screwed one way or the other -- acknowledge it or just let it slide. New 180 -- I talk too much and, as Chris said a few pages ago, can unintentionally go into lecture mode. It's something I've been paying attention to recently, especially with my girls.

OT, you see all of my warts here. I don't dwell on my triumphs or good spots when I post. That said, I'm a good guy. Not perfect, but I have more strengths than weaknesses. To me, the Thanksgiving "debacle" as you put it was like walking into an emotional buzzsaw for me. Here I am, with literally no thoughts in my head, but "That's interesting, what'd you do?" and she bushwhacked me. I regret letting that conversation devolve into what it became. Everyone's earlier comments about her seeing that as control are almost certainly correct. I wasn't thinking that though. What I have to be is smart enough to realize that what I intend aren't what she perceives now, and probably forever.

I'm not saying my W is being immature, I've gathered from doing a lot of thinking over the summer, most of the reasons why she feels the way she does. I understand and, in all honesty, respect her for making a hard decision to leave so that she could be happy. As I've said before, until I realized some things about myself, we couldn't have been happy. What I DO find immature, is her repeated "I can't talk to you" and the fact that she mislead me. Yes, I violated my W in a horrible, inexcusable way the night she told me of her A. But, you know what, what about the way that she violated me? In January of this year, she tells me she loves me and doesn't want to lose me. We steadily become closer through March/early April (or so I thought). I was finally letting go of the A. I did push sex too much, in large part because of insecurity. She never let me get out how she made me feel. Everytime I tried to tell her, it was "throwing it in her face." I wanted to get through those emotions together with her, she wouldn't allow it. I did subtly blame her, in part because I had to swallow how I felt, but by the middle of last March, I can look back and say that I was over the A. I was happy with the way things were going. It wasn't perfect, but, I thought, things were improving (I did make the mistake of falling back into some bad habits at the same time, to my regret and shame. I got comfortable. It made her scared.) All that said, she never told me at any time how she was really feeling inside. We bought things together (we didn't get anything together for the house from last october to March of this year). We went on a weekend trip to Rehobeth with the girls (and my Mom because we had to delay the trip a weekend) and had a good time. All this time, she told me she was happy with the way things were going. Remember, during this whole time, she sees OM every day at work. They have meetings together because of their jobs. I trusted her. Then, I leave for a week for a business trip, and she tells me she's done. Yes, I feel violated at times. She did treat me unfairly, and I think with a great level of emotional immaturity. I've grown a lot during the past 8 months, and have a long way to go to be where I want to be. If there's a tone in my post of the last few weeks, it's this -- I've finally realized that it's not all my fault. She is to blame as well and she's not acknowledged her role in this -- and never did. I do feel like the victim of an emotional drive by at times.

And, all of THAT said, I get it. I just want to make it better. I don't feel entitled. I don't feel like she owes me her love. I am disappointed in her choices. And, yes, OT, I can understand why she wouldn't want to talk to me out of fear that I would snap -- hence the elliptical references and ommisions about OM. I know how much I've hurt her, and scared the [censored] out of her that night.

The funny thing is, I've journaled some variation of the above a few times, some of it here, all of it in journals to myself. As I sat and typed all of that out, I remember feeling those feelings, but I don't feel them anylonger (though I will admit to still feeling shabbily treated now and then). I don't feel the pain like I did back in Sept when I moved out or even back in Oct for Casey's bday party. It's now part of my history. I can remember how it felt, but I don't feel it. I still love her in many ways. Given a choice, she's still the first person i'd like to see in the morning and the last at night. Mostly, I feel disappointed (with both of us) and regret. If I hurt, I hurt for my girls.

Our conversations are limited to scheduling around the kids. I'll make jokes/small talk and occassionally I'll tell her she looks nice (Me: "You look nice, today."), but I've not intentionally brought up "US" since Oct 13 (that conversation about her volunteering is, ug, something I wish had never happened).

I'm not going to get into the OM issue, because it's speculation. How long has she been talking to him -- before the April ILBNILWY speech? She says no. I've chosen to believe her. Yet, to say that he's not part of this is BS. He's not the reason she had an A. But to say that her confiding in him over the summer, while I was making positive steps in my life NOT impacting the way she views me . . . c'mon, do you really think that's possible?

And, I don't think about her a lot any longer. When I read other posts, sometimes that'll jog something relative to me/her/what used to be us, but I don't spend hours thinking about what happened like I used to. I spend time her because I'm procrastinating at work, which is my BIGGEST personal flaw that I need to overcome.

Whew, that felt pretty good. Thanks, OT. And, regarding the procrastination, back to work.

BD

[Pudmuddle]

Hi Heimster,

I think OT kind of eloquently??? put into words the type of vibe I felt you were giving off in your posts. I hadn't posted to you for a couple of days, because I just couldn't think of how to get the point across well. My thinking was that if I could feel this across computers, well...you get the idea. I now see how much you realize this about yourself from your latest posting. It never is all one person's fault, you realize that now, but are you letting go. Are you really moving on? Just my insight but it does not seem that way.

You are a funny, insightful, charming, and did I mention funny, man. Let's see more of the great Heimy not the dark Heimy! Be good to yourself.

[Heimlich]

Strange how self-perception can differ from the vibe one gives off. Just curious, but I've owned my responsibility for where we are a number of times. Yet, whenever I point out how I view my W and the fault I think she holds (and which I do not think she's owned up to) -- which I've taken pains to paint her in a not entirely negative light -- I get hammered for, from my point of view, being a male brute. I'm stating that badly, but how am I giving off that vibe? I've written any number of times that I don't blame my W for where we are, but neither is she blameless.

And OT is right, some of my behavior towards my W in the past, adn at times recently, has been immature and unattractive. I'm a work in progress. A diamond, but i need a few more cuts before going in the shop window.

but are you letting go. Are you really moving on? Just my insight but it does not seem that way.

I know I sound intense when I write here. And those feelings are what I feel. I do still love my wife. I do still want to be with her. I would still like to have a family and grow old and die together. To get there, there would be a lot of pain on both sides to overcome. It would be worth it.

At the same time, I'm living and making decisions based on what I want to do. Spending my time the way I want to. Not thinking about her daily. Open to the possibility of meeting someone else and moving on should I meet that person (whoever she may be). Figuring out what I want to do and who I want to be without worrying about what affect that would have on her or her opinion of me.

I know and acknowledge that those are two pretty contradictory thoughts. Still, there it is.

Thanks for the kind words, Pud.

Oh, and, regarding how I act towards my W. I'm generally pretty positive and upbeat when she picks up the girls, or I drop them off. However, if I'm tired or had a rough day, I don't mask that from her -- I'm just tired and braindead like we all get sometimes. She's known me long enough that I couldn't fake her out anyway. No anger. No resentment. No sadness. Just me; whoever the hell that is

Can't resist: but dammit, why can't she give us another go!

BD

[Pudmuddle]

well, that's why it's called perception. It's my perception only, doesn't mean squat if you don't want it to.

I get hammered for, from my point of view, being a male brute

These were your words not mine. I'm not hammering, just tinkering with you. Besides I said you were charming!

I agree that you have owned your responsibility, you have made that very clear here. But...have you forgiven yourself?

bhopeful had a really good article on forgiveness: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/forgiveness/MH00131

(I'm sure you've read them all before, but just a good reminder only. )

I remember the first time someone pointed this out to me and I was stunned. I THOUGHT I had forgiven myself years ago(before I came to this site) for the awful things I had done in our marriage, but I really had not, at all. I remember always in the back of my mind, I kept thinking, 'How could I have done THAT to someone I loved, cherished and valued more than anything?' My H sensed this feeling of devaluement (if that's a word) in myself and tacked on right behind me and began to harbor those same feelings for me. And this is where we landed...

I could be wrong, and I know you will tell me , if I am, but this is the same 'vibe' that I pick up from your posts. I'm hoping you can see and understand a different perception, that's all.

[Heimlich]

Pud,

You're right. That's something I've looked at, but my mind keeps skittering away. Forgiveness of self. Yeah, there's something in that that I really need to look at. Thank you for pointing it out.

Which reminds me, OT, the Forgiveness book you recommended a while back should arrive tomorrow. I love Amazon. Also looking into IC. I was, then mawmaw and deadlines overwhelmed me.

I'm still not totally getting this vibe that I'm giving off -- is it related to a feeling that I haven't forgiven myself (which, as I look quickly at that point of pain, may hold a great deal of truth) or something else?

BD (to be known henceforward as PC -- prince charming, with better hair )

[Pudmuddle]

Ok, sorry it took so long to post, but I just had to pick my jaw up off the ground because Heim said I was right! Haha

Yes, I think now as I have been writing this out to you, I pick it up as a feeling that you haven't forgiven and project that disliking of yourself, chip on the shoulder thing into your words...which is understandable.

But I remember being this way too, and I did not come across to other people as being happy, it was like I had a big chip on my shoulder and people could see that...even when I thought I was being ok. Hindsight, I can really see how negative I was! I projected indifference and utter displeasure to all areas of my life, my job, the people I worked with, and I kept projecting like I was Vicki Victim. But honestly I never realized I was being that way.

I remember what a shocker that was to have my C point that out to me. I thought 'what?!!!'. I think I can feel it from you because I have been there and it's a very hard thing to see in oneself. Thanks for being able to view a different perspective, I know that sometimes is easier than it sounds.

PCwBH, you da man!

[Heimlich]

Thanks for the kick in the ass and the pat on the head (of better hair).

Got some thinking to do.

Anybody else pick up on this? I know that when i was younger, I could give off an arrogant, I'm better than you vibe. I've worked on that over the years. Sometimes lapse, but realize it quickly. I also know that when I disagree (partially or totally), I can come back stronger than I intend. That's usually because I want to understand better what someone is telling me. I've figured out over the years that it comes off as cockiness or not wanting to listen or plain ol' defensiveness, when inside I just want to understand. OT is familiar with this from me, I believe.

And, no, I don't know that I've forgiven myself for all of this shyte. I don't beat myself up, I just ignore it.

BD