First of all, I never thought I'd be posting in a forum like this. But life takes some interesting turns. I haven't bought the entire book yet, but SSM chapter 1 resonated so much with me that I am sharing it with my W (more on this later).
Some background. We sound a lot like Debra and Tom from chapter 1...everything great on the surface, wonderful home, three great kids, many friends, married almost 19 years. But something was missing. Was it MLC? I don't think so -- no red convertible urges here. It was that sense of "closeness" that everyone talks about. That sense that the feeling of fun was slipping away, that there was a simmering anger just beneath the surface. We finally had the "sex argument" (for this is something I had pretty much tiptoed around, mentioned it sometimes but not in too much detail; I just figured we were different that way). I guess it finally happened after chapter 1 opened my eyes big time. A lot of the "symptoms" that are in there were just too much like us ("Marriage becomes mechanical. Friendship often evaporates. Anger bubbles just below the surface. Misunderstandings abound. Emotional divorce becomes inevitable.").
To attempt to make a long story shorter, after I brought this up, my W told me "what do you want? I'm 48, not 21!", and more or less suggested that I needed to find someone else. Then it was "I've been making a concerted effort to 'do it' twice a week." Well, first of all, I appreciate the effort, but she makes it sound like so much work...and sometimes I could tell she wasn't really "into it." And it was always on her initiation, not mine; we didn't seem to sync up that way. I then made the mistake (I admit it) of telling her that "twice a week is the minimum!" (and, truly, I don't think we're even averaging that). It's not just the frequency either. There are things I enjoy that she seems to really shy away from (or simply refuse to do). Example: I'm a very visual person, when it comes to stimulation, as I suppose most men are. But when I attempt to look at here "down there," she says things like "what is this, a gynecological exam?"
This is not just a rant...I'm really wondering if the rest of the SSM book will address things like the QUALITY of sex, not just the QUANTITY of it. Also, feedback to any of what I've said or anyone else's experiences would be very helpful.
Anyway, I gave her a printout of chapter one before I left the house and will report back on our progress, if anyone's interested...
So, what is your response when she asks if this is a gynecological exam? A little insight....if she is timid and modest about that area of her body then she is going to have a hard time exposing herself in that way. Your reaction to her timidness could make all the difference in the world. Cathy
Well...I'm very gentle, of course. And she's still reluctant, of course. Do you suggest I forego this area of interest? I'm sure most women would not understand this visual aspect of male sexuality...
No, I don't suggest you forgo your interest in that area of interest. I'm just saying that understanding her reluctance will help in eventually getting you what you want. I think most of us women understand a man's visual needs. The problem is that it goes against what we are taught as little girls by our parents.
We are taught to cover that stuff up. To "sit like a lady," and keep those legs together. We are taught that it isn't lady like to show it off. My parents didn't tell me that that part of my body was ugly or bad but that it was very personal and private. When teaching me about sex they never once discussed the fact that their might be a desire by my husband to view that area of my body. Let's face it most of us women think it is to be kept clean and tucked away. Those kind of core beliefs don't lead to exposing that area readily and with comfort.
Have you ever seen The Vagina Monologs? It's a great one women show that tells indept how most women feel about their vaginas. We are very clinical about it. It is a receptical for a man's penis, and a birth canal. Other than that we can't fathom the idea that it is pretty, pleasing to look at or something we could use to give our husband's pleasure. That frame of mind is what gets us through those gynocological exam we go through every year.
It's a sad thing!! My father refers to that part of a woman's anatomy as her "loveliness." Men just naturally see it that way but us women are taught that it is a lot of things but lovely is not one of them.
Most of us think it is ugly...why in the world would we want to lay there while our husband's gazed at what we consider to be the ugliest part of our anatomy? It isn't ugly though!! That concept is something that is hard to understand and takes gently coaxing by someone who respects, loves and empathizes with our fears.
When you say you respond gently what do you mean? How do you communicate your desire for this to her? What are your words to her when she communicates her reluctance? You have to communicate in a way that helps you understand her reasons and her understand yours. She needs to be taught that her body is beautiful, she needs to feel that part of her body is beautiful before she is ever going to be willing to share that. When you convince her of that, watch out!! Cathy
Thanks for taking on such a ticklish subject (no pun intended!). I really appreciate it. You may be right as to my response to her "modesty". I'm sure I'm saying things like "I love to look at you" as opposed to "You're beautiful", though I'm sure that has been said as well. Again, thanks for your insights.
I will soon be posting my W's reaction to my "gift" of chapter 1...it isn't pretty.
Quoting Jeffo: I will soon be posting my W's reaction to my "gift" of chapter 1...it isn't pretty.
I'm sorry to hear that, but not surprised. I think there needs to be a primer or handbook for how the high-desire spouse might present the book to his/her low desire spouse. I posted to Sooner1992 in his post about my initial reaction and *I* was the one who found the book and bought it. I won't repeat it here, but check it out and see if it has any relevance to your situation.
At the risk of exposing myself for what I truly must be, an insensitive lout, I will proceed with my original plan, which is to relate to the group my experience with SSM and my W.
As I related in my original post, we had been having difficulties which I identified as being very similar, if not identical, to many of those that are described in SSM chapter 1. The other night I told her that I thought it would be a good idea to read it, in the midst of another tense "discussion" about why our relationship seems to be stuck in neutral (at best). The topic that night had to do with my increasing sense that something was amiss in our marriage in the area of "intimacy".
Well, the very next morning (this would be Thursday, yesterday), we ended up being intimate after the kids had gone off to school (I work at home). It was a delight to me, though I had the definite sense she was more or less going through the motions to please me (which brings up an entirely different topic we shall have to tackle at another time).
Anyway, in an amazingly ill-timed moment of what John Gray ("Men Are From Mars...") calls "Mr. Fixit", I chose later that morning to leave chapter 1 for her. I DID include a note that "...this morning was wonderful, hope you thought so too" and that I hoped she would accept the chapter in the spirit in which it was intended...that is, to help us get to where we need to be in our marriage...but I now realize, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, that my timing was atrocious.
Be that as it may, her note to me that night was brutally honest: "I can't begin to tell you how hurt, bruised, and insulted I felt...when I found your note and computerized text. Any happy glow I felt quickly vanished as I was greeted by the SSM article. For God's sake, why not go out, pick a couple of camelia blossoms and leave a simple note that just says 'I love you' [my note: why not indeed???!]. Noooooo -- let's YET AGAIN reveal to me how INADEQUATE I am, how frustrated YOU are. I just can't win, can I. I tried to understand your view and come to you this morning only to be slapped in the face. Thanks for nothing!!"
Pretty awful, eh? Needless to say, I feel like a complete putz. She's absolutely right about the camelias. I just didn't know when the opportunity would arise again to present her with the chapter.
What was your reaction to her response? You did apologize for being less than intuitive as far as when to bring the subject up didn't you? You got the opposite of what you wanted because she felt insulted. You didn't mean it to be hurtful but it was. Your best course now is to validate her pain and tell her your mistake was driven by your own pain.
I'm thinking the worst time to discuss sexual problems is right before or right after the act of sex. Bring it up when she is in the middle of something she is hating...mowing the grass or cleaning the kitchen. She might be more reecptive to the distraction then.
This is one of those things that happens when we fail to put ourselves in the shoes of the other person. You aren't bad for wanting to express your wishes to her but you still have things to learn about putting thought into how you broach the subject is going to cause her to feel. This was probably a lesson well learned.
So, what do you do next to try and dispell her feelings of inadequacies? Cathy
My reaction to her response? Immediate remorse. I (belatedly) got those camellia blossoms and added a note apologizing for my atrociously bad timing and lack of tact. Things are thawing. It's a delicate subject to broach at any time, I suppose, and I chose the worst possible time. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
