I don't know if I should continue to DB.

[theforlornhope]

Breton, I've been offline a bit, but catching up, I wanted to comment on a few things. (I will likely plaigerize some advice I've been given.) I'm far from a pro, but there are some similarities here with me.

Additionally, I think it would be a good idea if you solicited comments from some of the pros on this board like Jack_Three_Beans, Rollercoasterider , Smurf_SMR, missmyfriend, frank_D, AmyC, Was2Sad, and more. Some of them don't have a current thread, but do have an email address in their profile.

They are very wise, and yet likely don't wish to be called pros. Anyway, they can offer a lot of insight to your situation, and how to deal with it. I didn't say "handle it," as that implies control. We don't have any direct say right now, but our actions for us / about us, DO make a difference. If it is enough is yet to be seen for many of us.

Also, peruse other threads and offer support and advice. This will bring others to your thread, and they will do the same for you. You will be surprised at what even a beginner can pick out of your posts.

He acts more comfortable here, and more friendly. So I had made the mistake of thinking we had made progress. But I think things are still going strong w/OW.

This IS a mistake. Zero your expectations. That means expect nothing good, AND ALSO nothing bad from your interactions. This isn't fair, we should be able to expect certain things from our spouse, but fair is not where we are right now. In our interactions with them one might be caring / civil, the next day, or minutes later it might be hateful. This is where they are. No expectations smooths out the rollercoaster. A LOT.

Mentally, I think I need to think of H's mindframe as being permanent and I need to envision being D so that I can detach.

A lot here.

Detachment doesn't come from him or his mindset. It comes from you realizing that you are a whole person with or without him. We can all say this, even in front of a mirror, but to get our inner selves to believe it and act on it, we have to GAL, and move forward with our lives and goals regardless of the WAS actions. I'm not necessarily talking about "moving on," here, just about "going on," with our lives. In my case, I shut down and put on hold A LOT of things & goals tha I was involved with over the D troubles. Moving back into that course is where I need to be whether she comes back or not. If I kept shutting down, it would be very unlikely that she would even consider coming back.

In his mind, it IS permanent. Our task is to provide a safe place for them so that as it falls apart, (it will,) they have memories of a safe place to return to. Us. This sucks, but it sometimes works. Fighting it almost never works. It might fall apart for him prior to the D. It might not. Either way, you have been chosen to be the strong one, and provide that safety zone.

Back to the expectations thing a bit here. I must admit that I need to "do as I say" better. I cannot do that well in this respect because my STBXW dragged her indecision about the D / OM on for about 2.5 yrs, and is now pushing the fast track to D. Just my 2 cents about this, I "expect" to be divorced shortly. I "expect" that any possible reconciliation will be after my STBXW decides that the grass isn't greener over there. My expectations should be NONE on this, but for me to deal with this situation, I have to "expect" what I see coming.

After that, I expect nothing. No good, no bad. This allows me to deal with custody issues, and the logistics of D.

I think this is what W8ing wisely refered to as taking care of yourself. Some things we must do regardless of the DB principles, lest we find ourselves shat upon.

My way of reconciling these two things is that in the D settlement negotiations, I will look to my boys first, and treat her fairly. Not as my wife, whom I would give everything for, but fairly. Exclusive of that, I will do my best to provide that safe place, not show anger or resentment, and let her know that the door is still open by my actions.

I find myself increasingly thinking about filing myself. I rhink about other men and how they put their families first. And I think about whether I think H will ever come around and I do not hold out much hope.

I deserve better.

You really, really do. We all do.

This is where you begin thinking about whether or not you want to / can stand for your family and marriage. I'm CERTAINLY not going to criticize anyone one way or the other about this, but I view this is a decision that is made as you go through this and learn, not as a whim or response to a post. This is a question for much wiser folks than me to post about.

Well, today H tried to catch my eye and gave me this big toothy grin.

I hate to say it, but besides being surprised I am not sure that I cared.

Or maybe if I am being totally honest, I would say that I am tired and still angry.

Amen sister.

I still struggle with anger. I suspect that if you ask some of the wise old dogs from this board about it, they would say it still raises it's head once in a while.

Expressing anger to the MLCer is so self destructive. You play into their hands by validating their belief that "She's such a #(*$@&, this is why I need to divorce."

I thought I understood this time and time again, but I really didn't. I'm finally getting to the point that I can stifle the anger, listen and validate.

In order to really validate, I came to a real, (much better,) understanding of what she is going through by reading A LOT on this board. A lot of threads, and following posts of those I found that knew what they were about. (Don't just post here, read.)

This is especialy hard since as MLCers, they don't give us many opportunities to have that R talk, so you need to get anger under control and be READY for the R talk when they open the door.

I'm sorry this was so long, I'm trying to squeeze in a bunch of my HARD earned lessons in one post.

Hope it helps.

Best,

[forward]

Thank you FLH.

I am a bit at a loss. Today H said he wants to watch D2 here instead of at his apartment. Said since he has been sick and the place is full of germs and he doesn't want D2 sick.

I said OK and even said he could have something to eat here. It is a little easier for me not to have to drop off D2.

But I am not sure I am feeling that generous w/H yet. I am also realizing I have grown used to the privacy. I am concerned that he is going to snoop--and take more paper towels for reasons i do not understand! I guess I am used to being on my own now.

On the other hand, it is easier for me if he watches D2 here. I don't know if he is feeling like he misses things or what.

I guess I will have to go hide my diaries and things i do not want him to see.

I am not sure if I am doing the right thing by letting him back in here.

[w8ing]

I find myself increasingly thinking about filing myself. I rhink about other men and how they put their families first. And I think about whether I think H will ever come around and I do not hold out much hope.

I deserve better.

You are in my mind, Breton - I think the same thing. And as far as other men, I really don't think about the dating, but really how I see others treat their wives. Yes, I get a little sad when I see it.

I also understand you need for privacy. I put a different doorknob on my bedroom door and I lock it everyday that I leave. H admitted to coming into the house once when I was gone. He has also broken into my email account...yet he is the one cheating - can't figure that one out! I legally can't keep him out, but I can make sure that I have some measure of privacy. I keep everything that I wouldn't want him to see in the bedroom.

I think FLH posted some wise words to you.

I think you and I are in a similar place. I am just tired. And I haven't bveen in this nearly as long as you....

Hang in there, breton!

Hugs!

[forward]

Well, I guess I will see how it goes. I figure it could be that he wants to take advantage of my comfortable situation somehow, or it is that he is taking a step towards coming back and doesn't want to be around OW, or maybe more neutrally, this is just a nicer place to be than the apartment. Or, as it is often the case, a combination of some of the above.

If he takes paper towels (???--don't get that) from me or snoops or leaves the place a mess, he will have to care for D2 at the apartment again.

[w8ing]

Good way to handle it.

The paper towel thing still amazes me....

Where are their minds......

[forward]

Well, he left the place a mess and did his laundry here, which makes me feel taken advantage of. But he did not take any paper towels or toilet paper.

I believe I am going to have him go back to his place to look after D2, because she is used to being over there.

I have to say, though, that in some ways it is easier to have him come here.

He seems slightly less wacked out and even a little human lately.

[Grace_O]

I don't think your D2 cares where she sees him. If you don't want him to watch her there b/c he left a mess, tell him. Tell him if he wants to see her there he needs to clean up after himself and her. If your angry about it, you don't have to express it to him, but you have to own in in yourself. Dealing with anger is tough esp when it can't be expressed as in a "normal" R.

You sound good. Hang in there.

[forward]

Well, today I had Xmas decorations up and H ate w/us again. He was happy because he sold a painting. He seemed proud; I tried to praise him

But he did not linger.

And I want him to take D2 back to his apartment so I don't have a mess to contend with.

[forward]

H seemed to expect that D2 will be in his apartment tomorrow--good. Asked me for paper towels or toliet paper and I said we just had enough for ourselves. H was annoyed and left, but it's not my job to stock his pantry.

I offered H tea and some of D2's soup, but not a meal. H hinted he hadn't eaten today. H continues to complain and whine. He hates Christmas, hates technology, hates this and that and the other. I didn't say much about that, but he has lost his attractiveness to me in many ways.

He has become whining and boring and sounds old, cynical, and cliched. Irony, of course, is that he is the one who thinks he is young and cool.

H could tell I was not in a good mood but I don't really care. Also hung around longer than I expected.

Oh--Crushee seems to have backed way off. I've tended to initiate emails--I should probably hold off. I know this is just as well but his dedication to his kids as well as his insightfulness continues to impress me.

[forward]

hunh. H seemed to want to linger a little teeeny tiiiiny bit. Made hints about how what I was making smelled good and looked good. Mind you, I am not much of a cook and H complained about most of what I made a lot of the time so I didn't really learn or try. I didn't offer him anything but I noticed he seemed to like an excuse to come into the kitchen.

Getting some *slightly* longing looks, too. Looking me in the eye, or trying to. The house is pretty w/decorations and I light candles in the evening. I like making the place cozier as H used to complain so much about how everything would make a mess. Now I just make "a mess."

But I am still sad and still have trouble imagining H making any effort whatsoever for me. It is not as if he really hung around any longer and as I said, yesterday he just really annoyed me.

Time for a chocolate chip cookie!!