an xh, his FF, Thanksgiving, MIL, and one psuedo-R

[JennyF]

Azhira,
I'm so sorry it didn't go how you wanted. I think it was all necessary though...better to know where it stands.

I agree with Dom...tell him what you want and make him choose it or not.

He's been getting everything handed to him on a silver platter and all at no 'emotional cost' whatsoever to him. I couldn't believe it when I read all of the financial support you've been giving him!! He can justify JD becuase you're divorced...but you can support him in the meantime even though you're divorced? Yes...he is delusional.

He's living the good life and you just pulled it out from underneath him...and he's going to make it look like it's all about your son.

My H is doing the same thing right and I'm trying to find the way to make him understand that if he isn't seeing his kids as often as he wants that it is the reality based on his choices and not me using the kids as pawns. They think everything is about THEM!!

Don't worry about being that way in front of your S...if it was a habit then it might be a problem, but every kids sees conflict at one time or another.

Azhira...I think whatever 'lunatic' behaviour you're displaying right now you're completely entitled to. I think it's been building up in you that it was bound to come out. And as far as your missing him, of course you do. In a sense you just got another bomb drop and you're revisiting a lot of those feelings.
Don't be too hard on yourself! I'm glad to hear that you're finally telling him how you feel and making your needs and wants a priority.
J~

[azhira]

I make significantly more than him. (At least I'm not worried about my basic bills being paid without him. ) I actually didn't mind, while we were being close. I wasn't even looking for 'forever' commitment right now, since he said he wasn't ready. I did, however, expect that someone I was sleeping with wasn't sleeping with someone else. I realize that I chose to pay for some things.

I have calmed down. (And am sort of eating again.) Writing about the crazy helps me feel not-crazy. lol I no longer have the very strong urge to hit him upside the head with a very heavy piece of lumber.

So. Yesterday, forgot to mention, one of the times I left xh's, he had the gall to ask me if I was still upset about all of this. I said yes. He asked me what the problem was. I said "her", and pointed to the big stupid picture he has sitting up of her in his living room.

I also started carting back the remaining items I had of xh's in my place back to his. I noticed later in the day that he had laid her picture face down. It was still down this morning. He had asked me for one a couple of days ago, and I told him 'no way'.

I did wind up hanging out with him a bit last night. I had gone to pick up DS for a few hours, but since he's been sick, he cuddled up on me and just fell asleep. I didn't have the heart to drag him home and then back, since we had already agreed he was staying at xh's last night.

We had a pretty good talk last night. Lots of the same stuff said, only calmer. He told me he had missed hanging out with me the last couple of days. I told him I had missed it, too. He made some really weird comment about making other sleeping arrangements "if I chose to stay the night", since I now have issues with that bedspread. I told him I didn't plan to, although I did get the baby to go to sleep on the couch before I left for the night.

xh finally did say he understood why I felt that upset, just not how I felt, since he's never been in that situation. (I think the guy really needs to get good and cheated on, at least once in his life. Not that I want to put him in that kind of pain, but maybe he'd get where I'm coming from!) I told him that, maybe we weren't 'dating', but couldn't he see that we were 'more than just friends'. He also finally did say that, yes, he could see that.

It was better this morning when I picked up DS before work. He asked me if I was still upset. I said that I was. We chatted for a bit while I nursed the baby. He said DS really prefers my milk at night (for whatever reason, he still needs a middle of the night feeding), and asked if I would be willing to pump some more for him. He knows how much I am sick of pumping (it's been a year!!), but that's better than "You'll have to wean him to make my life easier." (I don't think it would make anyone's life 'easier'. It would just make him weaned. It's not like he nurses that much at his age.)

xh told me that he had been afraid that my reaction over the weekend would be how I would act from that point on. I told him no, that was a panic reaction. That I had calmed down, and although I was still very, very upset, I am able to speak much more rationally about it now. I do remember telling him that he was choosing her over me, that I understood that, but it still hurt.

He also asked why I would want him to come back, when he still has issues with being touched. He asked me if I wanted to be in a R where he jumped every time I touched him, and what I would do if it never went away. I asked how seeing JD fixed that problem. (No answer.) I told him that switching partners won't make that issue go away for him. I told him that he's still using new R's as a band-aid, and he's gotten distracted from the whole working on himself thing. I also told him that I am more than willing to work with him about that issue, whatever that means.

So. Dropped off DS at daycare. Called xh, and left him a vm that the baby was doing much better. (He's been really worried, since DS has had a nasty ear infection the past ten days or so.)

We've already had three conversations this morning...they've kind of all run together, but here's the gist.

(For someone who doesn't want to date me, he sure calls a lot...you know, 'about the baby'.) He said he got my vm, and wanted to tell me that he had been worried I was going to start yelling at him again, and he was starting to dread getting my messages. I listened, validated. We chatted about needing to get DS some cooler weather clothes (Hey, it is Phoenix!), and he asked me to tell him, so he could come along. That lead to another "I'm uncomfortable" conversation.

xh thinks I am trying to pressure him into choosing to be with me, and threatening that he will have less time with the baby if he doesn't make a choice right now. I really don't mean it to sound like that (and I do see how it's coming across that way), so would appreciate some suggestions on saying "these are my boundaries" that may come across less threatening. I've told him that I can't spend that kind of time with him, because my feelings are too tangled up with him.

He said "So, you can't be friends with me if I'm seeing someone?" I said yes. xh said, "So, you wouldn't be friends with me if you were seeing someone?" I also said yes. Because I am not capable of being 'just friends' with him... (At least he's not protesting that they're not involved.)

I also told him 'no' on a couple of more money issues. He will sell the Pontiac (it's his, just titled in my name currently) if his mother does give him her car, which will solve my car legality issue. I told him I felt used, because he had lied to me about JD. That I felt like he had withheld things from me in order to continue getting my assistance. xh said he could understand that.

xh said he didn't understand why I was mad, since I had always expressed my disgust at women who pursued him as a married man. I said I don't have a personal problem with JD. (Ignoring the whole she's married thing.) I did tell xh again, that I felt like he had been cheating on both of us, because he was emotionally and physically involved with two women at the same time.

I told him I didn't understand why, if he kept saying he left because he needed to clear his head, he could be in a R with her. (Yes, I fully understand that this about my need to understand why 'she's better'. I told him that.) I told him that I understood that, but asked him he thought that it would be any different. Got the alien thing again about how I didn't know everything there.

xh said I didn't want him back right now, because he was still not 'fixed,' at that there are things that I still don't know yet. He did say we could talk about it later. He said he didn't want DS exposed to the crazyness, and thought that was worse than him having separated parents. (I agree.) Again, I asked him why it was okay to be involved with JD, then. He just kept saying that he wasn't that heavily involved with her, since it wasn't interfering with his schoolwork or time with the baby. (???) He kept saying he still didn't know 'what it was'. (I call BS on this one. I think he's just having an affair for the fun of it, whether or not he'll admit that, even himself.)

I also asked him if there were other reasons he had left that I didn't know. I asked him if he had been holding onto any anger or resentment about PM or TWG, and that, someone had told me years ago, that his friendship with xow had started because he was jealous of my friendship with PM, and was trying to get back at me. He got really quiet, and said that that had been why he started hanging out with her. I said I had always felt guilty about that, fearing that I had somehow contributed to his affair. (Actually, years later, I can see how the whole thing wound up, on both sides. Ick.)

I told him I consider it all done and over with (and I'm being honest about that), just was trying to understand how all of this fit together. That part of my need to understand how and why he left is to give me perspective, and help me learn from my mistakes--either for him, or for another R. (And yes, I'm being honest, here, too.)

xh told me that, at times, he had felt invaded when I was at his place, but didn't want to tell me because 1) it would hurt my feelings and 2) he didn't want to keep me from our baby. I told him that, one of the things that I had been learning, was that these are the types of things we need to actually talk about, instead of bottling up. (I do it, too. Trying to break that habit.) I told him that he didn't have to necessarily change his actions if the situation didn't warrant it, but that he should be more upfront with me about how he feels, to keep from building resentment. I also told him that this new approach had been helping me a lot lately.

Phew.

I think we've actually had a lot of productive conversations the last couple of days. Maybe I should add 'yelling at xh' as a DB technique. Nah, just kidding. I do need to be more honest with him about my anger and hurt. My approach was all wrong the last couple of days. (xh did concede he understood why I flipped, and felt he would have done the same, had the situation been reversed.)

He feels I am trying to manipulate him into a situation that benefits only me, and I see why he would think that. Any suggestions for how I can talk to him in a way that doesn't come across that way? I've been trying the "these are my feelings," I statements, and "these are my boundaries". Any other ideas.

xh actually seems to listen to me and absorb what I'm saying. When I can say it like a grown-up. He wants to talk more about all of this later.

[Dom R]

xh thinks I am trying to pressure him into choosing to be with me, and threatening that he will have less time with the baby if he doesn't make a choice right now. I really don't mean it to sound like that (and I do see how it's coming across that way),

Umm.. azhira... it SHOULD BE that way.
right now.

this "man", has been babied for long enough.
Draw a line, and tell him he's made wonderful progress since the divorce, and it's time for him to make a choice.

You will take him as he is, Right Now.
If he will chose you, Right Now.

xh said I didn't want him back right now, because he was still not 'fixed,'

aha. Dom's psychic intuition strikes again. i was right on that one

Correct him. Dont let him tell you, what you want.
Tell him what you want.

My approach was all wrong the last couple of days.

Sounds like it was right on the money, to me. Sometimes, when someone refuses to acknowlege that they are hurting you, you gotta be in their face that they are hurting you, in a way that they understand.
Seems like nothing else would make him understand.

He feels I am trying to manipulate him into a situation that benefits only me, and I see why he would think that.

Errr.. WHAT?? I dont see why he would think that.
What situation only benefits you?
Being exclusively with you, and getting to be close to you, and being intimate with you... benefits only YOU?? He gets no benefit out of it???
well, gee, i guess not... if you are completely worthless to him.

next time he tries that babble, try confronting him with that one.

Right now, (or at least recently) he gets extra time with your child, NOT because he is entitled to it, but because you trusted him, and enjoyed the time together.

You withdrawing that privilege, because of his betrayal, is nothing that he has any right to complain about.
With his complaint of "you're punishing me",he's trying to turn things around and make you the bad person.
Well, YOU are not. HE is. Dont let him make you feel bad about withdrawing, because of HIS cheating.
He knows what he did was wrong. He's trying to get you to say it was all right, or at least "understandable". Dont let him.
You dont even have to argue with him any more. Just say that you both know it was wrong, and dont argue any further. waste of time.

xh actually seems to listen to me and absorb what I'm saying. When I can say it like a grown-up. He wants to talk more about all of this later.

well, good.. i hope you have a nice grown-up conversation with him, about how adults are capable of grown-up concepts, like commitment, fidelity, and honesty. Which then bring benefits of trust, and intimacy, AFTER the aforementioned things are shared with each other.

How's that?


PS: I cant believe you put up with a "big picture of her" in his main room. gah.. it's practically like they were happily married yet living apart. *puke*

[azhira]

PS: I cant believe you put up with a "big picture of her" in his main room. gah.. it's practically like they were happily married yet living apart. *puke*

I didn't. He had just put the stupid thing up. Was up maybe a day or two.

So, xh just called me again. For a guy who "doesn't want to be with me", he sure calls a lot...lol...

He thinks I am trying to manipulate him because I am being forceful. He has this problem, in general. (Yes, I know, that's his problem, not mine.) The trick is to say things in a gentler way. Although, it doesn't seem to be working...

[DaveJ]

privilege

Dom couldn't be more right. Remember he bailed when you were pregnant. You are doing him a favor letting him see your S. He shouldn't have any right to your S. Yeah he's the biological father, but he's also the one that ran away when he was suppose to be there. He should be so lucky that you are letting him being this involved. You aren't keeping him from his S, he is. He chose to leave, he chose to D. And he's choosing to be involved with JD. That is just the consequence of HIS actions. He needs to get it and not play the oh poor me I'm clueless...

[Dom R]

He thinks I am trying to manipulate him because I am being forceful. He has this problem, in general. (Yes, I know, that's his problem, not mine.) The trick is to say things in a gentler way. Although, it doesn't seem to be working...

well ya know what michelle would say. stop doing what doesnt work, and keep doing what is working.

What's been working for ya lately?

PS: i wouldnt entirely say that him complainig that you are "being manipulative" is his problem.
It's probably a good idea to ask HIM, what the difference is,between "being manipulative", and "standing up for better treatment for yourself".
Then perhaps that might give you an idea on how to reframe things.
If on the other hand, he cant tell you the difference, then you know he's just blowing smoke in your eyes about "being manipulative".

[azhira]

No, I don't think he's blowing smoke...just a guess, though...

What's been working lately is if I follow this formula:

I feel [feeling] because [reason]. And being extremely explicit. That helped earlier when he and I were talking.

You're right. I should just ask.

I did tell him, point-blank, earlier today that what he's telling me doesn't make any sense. That, if I'm the only one he can rely on, can always call, etc, why is he choosing JD (and his friends) over me?

[azhira]

Another thought...

I'm guessing I keep backing down, because I actually feel like I'm being mean to him. It feels weird and unnatural to not take his calls, or help him out. (I know, I know, throw things at me.) I'm not sure why.

Any guesses...?

[Dom R]

youy love him.
you dont want to reject the man you love.
that's why.

it hurts, to try to stand up to someone you love, and tell them that you want them to stop hurting you, or you will stop seeing them.
Because not seeing them, hurts you too.
It takes a LOT of hurt from them, to make us finally give up and say that the hurt from them, is worse than the pain of not seeing them.

If they love YOU, then they stop hurting you, because being with you, is more important to them than feeding their egos with other people.

[DaveJ]

azhira, do you feel bad if you don't help him? Do you feel that you have to help him? I'm wondering if there's a hint of codependency going on....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency