an xh, his FF, Thanksgiving, MIL, and one psuedo-R

[azhira]

Maybe a bit of "self-protection" to help you detach.

Dom, yup, I'm sure there's some of that in there, as well. I think I mentioned that in some earlier posts...

Do you feel like you just don't want to rock the boat?

Dave...maybe a little...? I do have this whole conflict-avoidance thing I've been trying to work on. It extends into other areas of my life, and really gets me into a lot of trouble.

I think Ellie nailed it, though:

thought I was too good for that jealousy stuff

I can recall, even when I was much younger, thinking jealousy was a terrible thing. I didn't want to be that person. I can remember watching movies or listening to songs, and, even as a kid, thinking that behavior was dumb and unnecessary. I just didn't see why the partner (whomever) would get upset about some things. It seemed too selfish.

-----------------------

Got into an argument with xh. (I started it. Before I even read here this morning.) He still doesn't think we're playing married. (Um. Hello?) You know, since we're not ML. He did tell me, again, that I'm the only one he can depend on, the only one he really trusts, how comfortable it is around me, likes spending time with me, talking about his issues with me, etc. I point-blank asked him why he thinks that's not paralleling being married. His answer? "I don't know."

Bleh.

I told him that acting like a divorced couple would mean talking less, hanging out less, less time with the kid, etc. He got really mad, said I had no right to keep his kid from him. I told him I didn't do it, that it was a consequence of divorce. Got the whole "but I thought we were being cool" nonsense again. He tried to tell me (again) that I shouldn't prevent him from seeing his kid by withholding a key to my apartment from him. I said I give a key to a bf; as he's not that, he doesn't get a key. He said that he gives keys to his friends. I said that it didn't matter; this is my boundary, and I am not him. I told him he had no legal right to a key. Which he interpreted as me "threatening" him, and he started yelling about going to find a lawyer. (Um. Okay. Be my guest...I think he would be in for a rude surprise.) When he started cursing at me, I just hung up.

He called me back. I didn't answer. He left me a vm (crying), saying he wouldn't yell. So I called him back. He was in tears, saying how he didn't get to see his kid as much as he'd like, he didn't want to go without seeing him, and how I was doing this to him. I just told him, again, that that is what happens when you get divorced. And, that he needed to accept the consequences of his actions. He kept going on about how he had been "honest" with me, and "talking" to me, so he didn't understand why I was confused. I told him I had no intention of keeping the baby away from him; told him that the baby can stay with him tonight, as that was what we had already decided.

He had a call from his boss, and I had to go to a meeting, so the convo was stopped there. I sent him a quick text saying I didn't want to have Thanksgiving with JD. He said he would tell her she "shouldn't come". It was amazingly easy. I just need to learn to do that more...

We finished the discussion a bit later. He seemed rattled, but no more anger or crying or anything. He kept asking what he had to do to continue to see his baby everyday. I have to admit, after I had pushed and started this whole discussion...I had no idea what to say!

xh said that he knows this situation won't work longterm. After I told him that I really wasn't looking for him to pick a direction right now (he'd freak out, and repeatedly say "I can't"...it was the only way I could get him to continue talking), he said he wants to make sure he's around as much as possible while the baby is still young. After some bickering, I told him I needed to understand his viewpoint, so had two hypothetical situations.

One. We are never going to date again, he has no intentions of dating me at any point in the future. I asked him why he would want to change the current arrangement--didn't he have pretty much everything he could want? He insisted no, no he didn't. That he expected, in this scenario, when the baby hit 18-24 months, we'd split the time more evenly. He insisted it was because he didn't want to separate the baby much from me, and that

Or two. We wind up reconciling. In this situation, I pointed out he would have to cut off contact with JD. He said he knew that would also mean he would have to change his friendships with MY and MN. He said he knew I wouldn't make him give up MY (in my head I thought, "Should I? We both think she's interested in him."), but that he wouldn't hang out with them alone anymore. I did say it would have to shift to more of a group of friends--with all of us.

xh also said he did think it was kind of weird that he invited JD, but had left it alone because I had said it was okay. (See? I'm creating my own problems here.)

I got lots of "I'm not ready for any of that" and "I don't know." He did say that he doesn't do the touchy-feely thing anymore with FF's, that he knows that was wrong. And, xh said how much he likes spending time with just me and the baby, that it's nice. He wanted to know what he had said that brought all this up. I emphasized it wasn't anything he had said, just that I had been questioning a lot of things about myself. And that, I wondered if I was letting him get away with too much. He seems to think that this is just about the ML--he said "But we don't do that anymore."

I did tell him that I enjoyed the time together, too, that it's nice. He kept saying "We're out here alone, we don't have anyone else." I told him that that was one of the things that feels very M-ish to me...the favors, the lending money, etc. I also told him, if it's so nice, if we get along so well, if you're so comfortable with me, then what's the problem? That sounds like a pretty good M to me. Him: "I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out." I did tell him that just finding a new partner wouldn't fix it. Him: "I don't know."

Here's the kicker. After our talk...I'm not that mad at him anymore. Actually, I'm looking forward to spending the evening with him. Gah!! I get the feeling that I should be more mad...but maybe that's a misconception...maybe I'm actually upset with myself because I suspect I should be keeping more distant...?

[JennyF]

Azhira...it sound a little like your xh is having his cake and eating it too.
Not that I doubt his intentions with your S, but how much of that is an excuse to see YOU that often.

If you don't detatch a bit, how is he ever going to know what he's missing?

Listen to me acting like I know what I'm talking about!
J~

[kml]

Okay - when will the baby be old enough for you to pump a bottle of breast milk and leave your X with him while you go out on a date??? Honestly, this guy has NO idea what he's doing, but he'll FREAK once you start doing what HE is doing.

Ellie

[azhira]

but how much of that is an excuse to see YOU that often.

Yeah, you're the second person who's said this to me...

when will the baby be old enough for you to pump a bottle of breast milk and leave your X with him while you go out on a date???

We have been. For months. I work full-time. The kid is 13 months, so we've progressed to table foods. He is certainly capable of spending the night without me. Actually, the sleep-over thing is relatively new. DS used to spend a couple of nights or so a week with xh, alone. Additionally, we only nurse maybe 5-6 times a day now. I'd like to go to two years, but I realize that may not be possible. I did hit my major goals of exclusive bf'ing for six months, and nursing to a minimum of one year. Two years would be great, but okay if we don't hit it.

After the arguing calmed down a little yesterday, he offered to cook me dinner if I'd stay the night so he can do homework. At first I agreed. Then, I changed my mind. Which made him mad.

So...argument continued last night... Lots of talking in circles, but it boiled down to:

I have no idea what I'm talking about with JD. There's nothing there, and I'm making stuff up. (Yeah, right.) When I said I wasn't sharing a bed when he's saying ILY to someone else, he resorted to "You snooped!" Yeah, ok....

He refuses to spend a night away from the kid. When he'd say "I didn't intend for this to go on forever," I'd ask him for a time line. I'd ask him to help me work out a new schedule. This whole topic seems to be a gigantic panic button for him. He did point out, correctly, that he was very supportive of my bf'ing, and that he didn't force me away from the baby before I was ready. Point taken. I am willing to do it more gradually, because he absolutely worked me with me on the bf'ing every time I asked him to.

He kept saying how he needed me there because it's hard to study with the baby there. I told him that I'm busy, too, and I don't get everything done I need to.

xh would also tell me "I'm glad you're okay with spending time away from your kid," I'd say I'm not, I don't like it, but I accept that that is the situation. When I'd point out that this is how divorce works (duh), he'd go on about "I thought we were cooler than that" and how we don't have to do it like everyone else. (The guy sure says 'we' a lot.)

He kept saying how he didn't deserve this, he's not doing anything wrong, and why am I doing this to him. At one point he asked me what he had to do to go back to "our arrangement." I blanked on my original plan...told him he couldn't be "friends" with JD in order for me to continue to be as involved in his life. Of course, that just made him madder.

xh also implied that I was "reading too much" into our interactions. Kind of implied I was seeing things I wanted to see. (I'm really not, am I?)

Towards the end, I got really upset. I just don't handle confrontation well. I always start to doubt myself, think I'm being insensitive, or mean, or really asking too much. Just started crying. He was trying to wipe away the tears. Really weird.

So I went home. I've lived in this place five months, and I swear, I've spent more time in his apartment. Was just feeling like crap. I had finally laid down when xh called. He wanted to know if I was okay. I told him no, I felt really crappy. He said he did too. It was a better conversation. He kept asking who I was talking to, where I got these ideas. I kept saying it was about me, and I had just been thinking about how these things bother me, but I'm not standing up for myself. I told him that I have a tendency to just agree to things, or to convince myself I'm not really bothered about something, when I really am.

xh said he had the same problem, with both me and his family. He then went on to say that I was welcome to come back to his place, to spend the night with the baby. That he would never keep me away from my kid. I have to admit...I really wanted to...but I made myself stay at home. It was surprisingly hard.

I think I need to do a better of job of saying I am uncomfortable...not just "that's how it's supposed to be." I did tried the trick posted over on the Separated forum, about responding to everything with a question. That seemed to help, some.


So, I just feel like crap today. We are still planning on Thanksgiving tomorrow. Mostly, I'd like to just be left alone for awhile...

[Dom R]

Ya know... for as bad as you feel right now... I think you've handled things *really well*.
congrats to you.

Gonna make a suggestion to you. I've made it before: please listen this time?

Got into an argument with xh. (I started it. Before I even read here this morning.) He still doesn't think we're playing married. (Um. Hello?)

You really... REALLY.. need to stop this.
You need to stop saying, "we're acting like we're married".
To quote michelle, "It's not working. So stop it"


Now, for something new to try:

He did tell me, again, that I'm the only one he can depend on, the only one he really trusts, how comfortable it is around me, likes spending time with me, talking about his issues with me, etc.

Some people approach marital reconciliation, with the viewpoint, that "the old marriage is dead and buried. gone. it's history. It's time to build a new marriage"

I think that approach may be what might work best for you.

So, to tie it back to what I just quoted;
rather than saying, "look, we're already married!"...

how about first dropping any of this arguing stuff, for a week, to let things cool off.... then saying something like,
"when someone finds another person of the opposite sex, that they trust more than anyone else, and are more comfortable around than anyone else, and likes spending time with.... that's usually a good reason for them to think about marrying that person".

So, .. enough of the "we're already married" stuff... how about if you were seeing someone brand new, and they said all that nice stuff about you.. how would you make them feel comfortable enough to propose to you?



[a bit of "me" whining... gah.. the "trust" thing, is a sore point with my wife. She claims we cant be together, because she cant "trust" me, or I dont "trust" her.
What I think is really at the heart of that, is, "I no longer trust her enough to think that when she's playing around with online games, and men, that she isnt trying to have guys pick up on her and get romantically involved with them".
That's the ONLY major area there's an issue with. But it's apparently the ultimate most important thing to her, that's more important than being with our children, or what's best for our children ]

[Dom R]

PS: on the snooping thing:

dont let him get away with changing the subject. pin him down to what you said, and answering it.

[JennyF]

Azhira,
I think we sometimes get so caught up in our DB'ing and focusing on doing what is right for our H's (so as not to rock the boat) that we forget what we really want.

I kept saying it was about me, and I had just been thinking about how these things bother me, but I'm not standing up for myself. I told him that I have a tendency to just agree to things, or to convince myself I'm not really bothered about something, when I really am.

xh said he had the same problem, with both me and his family.

You opened up about how you're feeling and he turned it around and made it about him again.

Don't compromise yourself...Don't forget what you really want and that you deserve it. Don't settle for less.
J~

[azhira]

So, I went and opened Pandora's Box.

I guess it really was just self-protection-induced denial on overdrive. Now that I've done some digging inside myself...I feel like I'm going out of my mind.

Oh. Even better. Was looking at pictures from DS's birthday on xh's computer...and found photographic evidence of their physical involvement. It's not like I didn't know...I just didn't want it to be true...and I can't believe how awful I feel.

I really, really just want him to leave me alone. I can't look at him without seeing it. I can't talk to him without seeing it. I'm having nightmares. And I can't eat...I have no appetite.

I'm refusing to talk to him about it. xh kept asking why I felt that way.

WTF? What do you mean why? He said he didn't understand, because we are divorced. I can't believe he's that dumb. Or that self-centered. Or both.

I told him a lot of the things I've had on my mind. That I'd been trying to work on myself, and my issues, and that I ultimately wanted reconciliation with him because I wanted an intact family for the baby. He said he had no idea, and said I should have told him. (??? Is he really that dumb?) I told him I've been trying to for months. I mentioned the letter. He said he thought I was only asking for more space. (Seriously?) I told how he'd kept saying that he wasn't ready for a R, and so I hadn't wanted to push him. That I thought he knew all these things I did for him were things I do for someone I'm interested in; that's why I'd been telling him for months I wouldn't do so if he were seeing someone. xh said he had no idea, and "didn't mean" for the JD thing to happen...that it wasn't "that way" in his mind. (Seriously?? Come on.)

After lots of yelling on my part--where I kept repeating that I had always said I wouldn't do a lot of these things if he were seeing someone--he at least admitted he lied to me. xh said it was because he had been afraid I'd stop helping him. No $h!t, Sherlock. I told him that was manipulative. I had to explain to him why that was manipulative.

So, I refuse to spend the night at his place. I refuse to let him stay the night here. I am no longer lending him money. I am no longer helping him with his schoolwork. I am not eating with him or hanging out at his place with him. I just can't do it. I can't be around him without totally freaking out right now.

But he keeps calling me!!

He keeps going on about how I have his kid, and I can't keep him away. I keep telling him he's not entitled to be at my place just because we have a child together. He now says I am using the baby to punish him, because I don't want to be around him. (Please, seriously, if anyone thinks I am honestly doing that, tell me.)

He asked me if he could stay at my place when his mom gets back into town. I said no. He asked me if I was going to keep paying his cell. I said no. He said he'd already changed the plan to something cheaper, and would also pay me back for the shoes I bought him last week. I said I would pay next month on the cell, and that's it. (It's due next week.) xh asked if I were still going to pay his car insurance, "per our agreement." (BTW, I have always maintained I wouldn't help him pay anything if he were seeing someone. I don't see how this is "backing out".) I said I wanted the Pontiac out of my name (it's my name only), and that I would not agree to insure the vehicle his mother is giving me. He said he wouldn't have a car to drive, and that it would be my fault because he can't see the baby. I told him to uninsure his motorcycle. He said he did, and still didn't have the money. I agreed to insure through January, and then I wanted the Pontiac out of my name.

xh gets another chunk in student loans in January. I am willing to give him a six week (or so) hiatus until his loans come in, but I want that car out of my name if he's going to keep it. My biggest concern (and the reason I caved) was that he really can't afford insurance, and I would be legally responsible for that car. I need to take a look at the law.

We did have one good talk late last night. (By phone.) About jealousy and it's place in a R. He told me he had been jealous of PM (my unintentional EA, before I even knew what it was, before he met xow). He told me he had also actually been really jealous of TWG.

TWG was a guy I worked with a couple of jobs back. I really could have let it run away with me...xh had moved ahead of me across country, and I was lonely. I was really attracted to him. Of course, at that point, I knew better...I only saw him at work. I only talked to him about work. Never hung out with him alone. Never talked to him after work, unless it was a production emergency, and then we were both very businesslike. I immediately cut all contact once I moved. Anyway, xh told me that he always thought he was 'too good' for jealousy, as well, so had never told me these things until now.

I was more than happy to take the baby to his place a little bit ago. I will be happy to go pick him so xh can get some studying in. I am willing to get up at 5am (uuugggh) so xh can pick up the baby, and I can leave work early enough to go get him. I just do not want him staying at my place! Honestly, is that using the baby against him?

So I drop off the baby. xh calls me while I'm en route. I'm 30 minutes, am I doing it on purpose to punish him? No, just took longer to get the kid out the door than I thought. I will be there soon. Can he borrow my vacuum? No. Why? We're not friends. What do I mean? What are we then? We're exes who have a kid. Can I help him apply for scholarships? No. Why? I'm not his girlfriend. But I know about this stuff. Ask the school counselor. Why am I being mean to him?

Agh!

I get there, hand him the baby. Plaster on (obviously) fake smile. Give DS lots of hugs and kisses, tell him mommy will be back soon. Start telling xh he has a mild diaper rash (probably from the cold he's had) and that he really needs to eat. He hasn't eaten much today, other than mommy milk. I grab my purse, give DS another kiss, start to leave.

xh asks why I'm in a hurry. (??? Seriously?) I say I can't be there, I can't be around him. I am avoiding looking at him. He gets close enough so that the baby can grab me. See, xh says, DS wants you to stay. I give DS more kisses, ask him if he still wants me to pick him up for a bit so he can study later. He says yes. I start to go. xh insists we talk about DS right now. I just lose it, start crying, basically just leave, telling him I need to be alone.

Ten minutes later, xh calls me. I ignore it. No voicemail.

He calls me again. I ignore it. No voicemail.

He calls again. I answer. xh says, you said it was easier to talk on the phone. (True, I did.) Okay, fine. We talk a little about daycare. I start sniffling. xh asks me what is wrong. (Is he really that dumb?) I tell him I don't want to talk about it. He pushes, and pushes, and I just lose all control again, start crying hysterically, and babbling about how I can't get it out of my head. I wind up hanging up on him. He's left me alone so far.

Okay. First things first. I am out of my freaking mind. Clearly, I had more emotions bottled up than I had thought. Being insanely upset is one thing, but I'm doing it in front of DS. That I don't want to do. Breaking down on my own time is fine, but I can't keep yelling at his dad in front of him.

xh is clearly scared that I will somehow keep his kid away from him. (????) I need to figure out how to reassure him, or come up with some plan that works for both of us. It finally seems to be sinking in that he won't be staying the night here.

I feel like a lunatic. I'm not sure why. xh keeps asking me why I'm "doing" this "to him". And he doesn't understand why I thought we had some kind of psuedo-R thing going on. (Um? From everything I've written, I'm really not delusional, right?) Writing it all down is helping me clear my head...

I need to calm down when I'm talking to him. xh is, despite the weirdness he's spouting, talking a lot more like a rational adult than I am. He actually sounded a bit wounded and concerned about me earlier when I left his place.

Lastly...I'm a f!ck!ng idiot, because I already miss hanging out with him. I know it wasn't healthy, but I had finally started feeling pretty happy again lately. I know that nagging little feeling would have just continued to grow until I blew up even worse than this...but I miss my time with him. It looks like my sanity just won't let me do it right now.

I'm also going to make a appointment with an IC tomorrow. I need another totally objective opinion.

[Dom R]

Sorry about the horrible blow to your system.

cant say it's really a surprise. but it's sad.

I'm glad you're not playing "nice" with him.

I think you do owe him ONE thing, though, and the sooner you tell him, the better.

Right now, you're just cutting him off.
And he's desperately trying to come back.
He really wants to get you back.
This wont last.

SO, make use of that, while it is still in him.


Tell him how he could make it up to you.
Then accept zero subtitutions or weasling.
"Take it or leave it".

Tell him, "If you want things to be the nice, intimate, close way between us.. then dump her. Irrevokably, in a way that is public to me".

MB, of course, recommends "the letter". That he shows to you, before sending it to her. This isnt quite "an affair", since you were, indeed, divorced. But he was 100% "cheating on you". you were in an intimate relationship.

PS: you should also let her husband know.

PPS: "wah wah you're punishing me!!!". Yeah, they always want to play the victim, instead of acknowleging how they've hurt YOU and betrayed YOU with their lies and actions, rather than the other way around.
Funny, that.

[Dom R]

All his babbling excuses about "you should have told me", etc, etc. make no sense, of course.
It's pointless trying to "argue" with someone, when they are just babbling.

I think that you should just tell him what it takes to make things right with you. and stick to it.
IE:
"I dont want to hear excuses. If you really care about ME, then this is what you have to do.
As far as our child goes: you're entitled to see our child [xxx time], and i will not withhold him from you for that time. You are NOT entitled in any way to see me otherwise"

[I think you've done great with what you've said to him so far, btw. i think it could just be taken that one extra step further]