Partying with my H's Divorce Lawyer

[Tamashii]

w8ing,

This is hard to hear, but ILY and things of that nature are considered pursuing behavior and will only drive him farther and faster away.
You must make a decision, then do what it takes to implement that decision. If you have decided to DB an MLCer, then you must do what it calls for, regardless of your feelings. At this stage, feelings will only trip you up and make your situation worse. As I have said to many: your first order of business is to not make it worse! That means all forms of pursuing behavior must stop. You cannot dictate what he needs to hear!
When you say that, you really mean "what I want him to hear."
You will talk yourself out of a marriage.

Here are some words of wisdom: (Not mine, but another lady with an MLC H)

Things I did to DB my H while he was living at home and having an MLC:

· I found more ways to focus on my children and myself.

· I forced myself to stop thinking about what my H was doing and how unfair(sound familiar?) it was.

· I realized there is really nothing I could do about my H’s behavior anyway.

· I learned to state boundaries in a friendly non-threatening tone. And to pick and choose those boundaries very carefully. I stated those boundaries quickly and succinctly.

· I tried to process all my emotions in a healthy way that allowed me to stay calm just about 24/7. If I became angry I broke plates against a wall to get out the anger.

· I worked on my self-esteem.

· I started going out once a week and having H watch the kids.

· I tried to stay in touch with my emotions as best as I could and release them as close to the incident as possible even if I thought I felt fine.

· I "acted as if", I was going on with my life, I gave my H some breathing room.

· I tried different 180’s.

· I became more unpredictable. One fourth of July H said he was going out. (Not spending it as a family) So I had a barbeque and invited lots of people over and celebrated without him.

· I became mysterious.

· I stopped initiating any conversation.

· I went to my room as soon as he came home.

· I laughed a lot and enjoyed my kids in my room with the door shut.

· I never made plans that included him.

· I stopped interfering and/or helping along his relationships with the kids.

· I stopped keeping him informed on the kids.

· I avoided R talks.

· I stopped confronting him.

· I left the room first and ended conversations first.

· I was always friendly but distracted.

· I stopped defending myself.

· I listened to him ad-nauseum.

· I sat in therapy sessions and let him express his anger at me until I couldn’t do it anymore.

· I took antidepressants

· Went to counseling by myself.

· Made a list of all of my good points and talents(To remind myself of my worth)

· I took stock of what about myself could be improved and took action.

. I realized that I didn't "blow it" every time I forgot to do one of the things I listed above or lost my temper or a myriad of other little "mistakes" that I made.

. I remembered that I am human and that we humans are imperfect.

· I prayed (I think this is paramount! Get closer to God.)

· I became more focused on what I had to be grateful for.

· I gave the whole situation over to God.


Notes on detachment: Detachment is a process. We detach a little at a time. You may notice that you have a drop in PMA just before you gain a new level of detachment. When dealing with a spouse in MLC, you are detaching for yourself. It is not a technique that will bring your H back into the family (though in some cases it can have that affect). Those in MLC have to complete the process in their own time frame. What we do will not usually shift that course. But, it will minimize damage. Detachment is necessary for the LBS survival. We are normally so wrapped up in our spouses that we cannot function when they leave and they cannot separate from us enough to figure out their own issues and quit focusing on us.


Back to David:

Please start doing what it takes. You have to get past just complaining about what he does and start your own proactive behavior. Go back and listen to those who have been successful at this. I don't mean to sound rude, but there seem to be a lot of newbies here giving you advice. I see very few real DB principles being discussed. This is NOT a forum for just complaining about your relationship. It's designed to show you what you can DO to improve things. Notice I didn't say to improve HIM. You can't do that. Your job is to improve your OWN life while he goes through this, and not make the situation worse by giving into your own urges and emotions. Other people have done it. You can too.

Really!

David

[w8ing]

I really hate that he gave me these papers this week...I was doing so well. Does he ever think about his timing? Don't answer that...I already know....

Rough night. I was taking D11 to her thing and D13 asks about Thanksgiving. I tell her that Wednesday night she is going to her dad's and then to her grandparents on Thursday for dinner. She is not happy. Tells me that it is boring at dad's and there is nothing to do.

Get out the 2x4's - I probably messed up. I called H after the two left the car. I told him I was uncomfortable calling him but wanted him to know how they felt about going there. I told him that they look forward to seeing him, but they don't have anything to do while there.

He agreed with me and said that he is bored there too. At first he was a little defensive, but I started giving him some suggestions as to what they could do to keep from getting bored. He thanked me for the ideas and it was a pleasant chat.

Then we take D11 to her next thing and I tell them that we all need to think of some things that they could buy or do at H's place. D13 has a meltdown.

We drop D11 off and D13 is sobbing. She is just very upset that dad isn't around anymore. I asked her if she wanted me to call H and see if we can work out additional time. She said no because she doesn't want to spend any less time with me.

She then was very upset about Christmas and Thanksgiving and me. Unfortunately, I shed a few tears because of some of the things that she was saying to me (she was being very loving and kind). I do think that she knows that H left and I didn't ask him to. She said to me that she knew that this wasn't my fault and that she knew that there was nothing I could do to fix things. I didn't ask a lot of questions, like how she knew this, because she was so upset. I got her calmed down and she is back to normal. I did ask her if she ever shares her feelings with her dad and she said no, she couldn't do that. I told her that dad loved her very much and she could talk to him. But I know she won't.

What a night.

What a week.

And it is only Tuesday....

[Upside]

w8ing-
I feel so bad for your daughters...the holidays will be hard for them as well. I wish that the MLCers could see what they to do to the children and the position that they put them in.

Why would anyone give you a 2x4 for calling your H about your D's...you have to look out for their best interest...no question about that. Sounds like your H was receptive to your suggestions so it's all good.

This is bound to be a rough week...hold on and you will make it through. You are strong and you have weathered the worst of this. I wish I had some deeply profound words to give you to help make things better...I'll keep trying to come up with something. Hang in there.

<3
Upside

[new_attitude]

(((w8ing)))
I'm so sorry you're having a bad week!

[Anned]

W8ing -

This link is to one of the most helpful pages I have found on this board, and it was written by Jamesjohn. In the midst of the fear, keep holding onto the fact that you are a whole person no matter what happens. I think we often lose sight of the fact that even if we don't want a divorce, we can be complete on our own. This is the time for all of your support - including whatever legal and counseling help you have - and to try to let go of tomorrow thinking. It is ok to fear and to doubt - just know you are more than those emotions!

Check this out, though. I have found great comfort in the words!
JJs interpretation of Michele's LRT

I am sending you hugs and hopes!
Anned

[Virtually_Handsome]

I think calling about your kids was fine. You didn't make it about him, and he even agreed with you. So, be happy!

Jeff

[Rollercoasterider]

w8ing,

I took my vows seriously. Took?

Is three a reason this is in PAST tense?

And I thought that I was marrying someone who felt the same way.

You likely were. He is no longer in control of his Self.

But he is not the man that I thought he was.

Really? I will disagree. The real person is in there; but the Monster is in control right now. The Monster is not the Man.

A true man doesn't consider himself first. A true man doesn't lie and cheat. A true man doesn't walk out on his family.

But also, a true man is not a martyr to his family. There must be a balance. In his present condition, staying would be an act of martyrdom. Martyrs hold their sacrifice over our heads; you don't want that either.

I don't know if I belong here. I have questioned that from the beginning. I don't know if he is in MLC. I don't know if I am standing. I don't know that I want to go through years of this, with the worse apparently to come.

To me divorce is the worst that may come. Sure, life doesn't end with divorce, but the pain is as great or greater than Standing, it's just that Standing may be more challenging.

Is it just an excuse for bad behavior? Is it just an excuse to take a "time out" in a marriage?

NO!!! MLC is dis-ease. Not insanity, but it is about Depression. Many do not reveal their pain. Invisible pain is still pain. Many are also able to compartmentalize and function in certain settings and let the mask drop in others.

Is it really worth it to have to deal with all of this? Why do we want to be with these men?

We don't want to be with the Monster; we want to be with the real person stuck inside.

Standing for one's marriage is all great, but when the time comes that there is no marriage to stand for, where do we find ourselves? I do not think that my current relationship represents a marriage beyond the fact that we both wear our rings and file our taxes together.

We find ourselves married and Standing. A person can Stand without being a Stander (much like a person can choose not to abort without being Pro-Life). But Standers believe marriage is a covenant 'til death do us part. I'm a Stander, and I so not interpret the scriptures literally. But I personally made a vow that we would be together for our entire lives. I made a vow not to abandon Sweetheart in ANY circumstancse--better/worse, sickness/health. I don't believe in divorce, and thus would not recognize a divorce as valid.

I don't think it's healthy psychologically or spiritually to bankrupt my own growth and the health of my sons just to hang onto something that's gone.

ME either, who's hanging on? Standing isn't Still. This is a journey for both the LBS and the MLCer. Embrace it for the opportunity it is.

I was beyond pleasant and said sure, but if he just wanted to give me a copy, I was sure that I could figure it out. But he said that he needed to go over a couple of things with me.

No! Legal discussions are for lawyers ONLY.

I have acted "as if" nothing has bothered me.

Let's review Acting As IF
Act As If (AAI) is commonly mistaken for Fake It 'Til You Make It; these are not the same. AAI is about expectations. Your spouse normally comes home grumpy, so you come to expect grumpy and prepare yourself for an expected rather than experienced mood. You respond to him as though he is grumpy since you are expecting it, he thus reacts and may become grumpy. Your expectations created the behaviour. So Act As If he will come home happy.
Act As If you expect a positive outcome, positive day, positive reaction, smile. This will yield a change in YOUR behaviour which can then realize a change in the reaction of the other person.

I am tired of pretending

Then STOP

I need to lawyer up now.

NOW? You weren't already?

But what do I say to him? I will see him tomorrow at school (if he shows up for conferences) and, if he asks if I have looked at it or what do I think...what do I say?

Tell him to talk to his lawyer, or your lawyer, to have his lawyer talk to your lawyer. Directly refuse to discuss anything legal with him. When he asks what you think tell him, "I think it's an insult and we do not need to discuss it further." Then refer to the lawyers. And YEAH, he'll get pissed. You are a vindictive Bitch who is just trying to make his life miserable. You only want his money. He's relieved you're acting like this because it makes hating you so much easier.
When whiny babies don't get there way, they throw tantrums. Let him. I'm sorry you feel that way him. Remain calm. Be prepared for a possible outburst. He may, he may not. Just be prepared.

What you do is tell him nothing.

Exactly

it really feels like he thinks so little of me to make such a pathetic offer

What you feel is not always accurate. This shows you are taking this personally. This is not about you, he is the one with the issues and they were never about you.

I don't know if my H is in MLC. He displays certain signs, but seems to be missing other key signs. Sometimes I wonder if I label him MLC because I need an excuse for his behavior. Or because MLCers come back more than WAS. I just don't know.

Yes, you do label him MLC for those reasons. It doesn't mean it's not MLC. Forget KEY signs, there is no accurate Key to MLC. Forget labeling ands start DB'ing As If he were MLC. That doesn't mean he will be MLC because you expect it, but that you will behave differently around him than if you thought his behaviour was due to something else.

I have to think that he thought it was not a big deal for me.

You HAVE TO think...? Since when? You refer later to how he is filing for separation now because he knows you won't sign and it will be two years for a divorce. Yu do not HAVE TO ASS-U-ME anything.

But then I think that if he is in a MLC...

Stop asking IF this is MLC. What you are doing is giving yourself a reason to eliminate MLC as a possibility when he doesn't behave in a manner you feel is indicative of MLC.

I just don't know that I am that strong.

You are if you say you are and vice versa.

I did tell my H that I didn't believe in D and he said he knew and that is why he wanted to separate now so we could get the clock ticking on the separation because he would have to wait 2 years because he knew I wouldn't sign.

So he's expecting you to not sign; go out there and meet his expectations!

Now, as for doing a 180 and confronting him by telling him you do not want a voice and how he is hurting you or writing a letter...

Go ahead and write a catharsis letter that you do not send, that is personal. Telling him you do not want a divorce, will take him back are Standing etc is different than guilt tripping him with how he is hurting you. There are subtle ways to SHOW (rather than tell) you are Standing, as for guilting... avoid that, he has enough guilt on his own.
I know, he's not showing the anger/spew so many do. So what! Sweetheart spewed in the beginning. He was in Monster mode for three days. That is all. I've seen some stay there for a few years. He quickly learned it wasn't going to work and stopped. Some learn it won't work, but stubbornly keep trying. I had a nice MLCer. He cycled and pushed buttons, but was rarely mean. Mean isn't a requirement. Rather it may likely be a reaction to what they feel you are doing or feeling.

I think you should hold off on letting him verbally know how you feel. You are right that it would be a good 180 since you were non-confrontational through out your marriage. But instead of telling him verbally, your message will be channeled through lawyers as your response to the settlement offer. Gauge that response first, then determine your next move.

Letting a MLCer know you are Standing is not about directly telling him. Some can take that and may need it--Sweetheart did. But for most, that is a sign of LBS denial. You show by remaining calm; not biting bait when he tries to incite and argue, by contesting, by being strong and self sufficient, by making the path home safe--being non-judgmental unconditionally loving; in short, by being Grace. It may seem vague, but it is real.

You can do it if you say you can. And you doing it doesn't mean he will or will not return; but you are strong enough.

HUGS,
RCR

[theforlornhope]

W8ing, sorry I couldn't answer before now because it was my night for swimming lessons, and the weather is screwing with my satellite internet.

I just went through this exact thing a few weeks ago. I felt anger and betrayal on top of the long lived rejection of IDLYA, I'm in love with another man. (I suppose that not many men go through having their wives try to screw them over financially.) Anyway, I know where you are coming from here.


Please don't be scared. It keeps us from doing what we need to do. I was, and still am scared sometimes, but we have to push through that. It is a fear of the unknown. We are afraid of what we can't control, and when it is about our most beloved things, it can be terrible.

I have this taped to my desk.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

As to whether you should say / write something to him, here is my take.

First, don't be too wrapped up about deciding if you should. You have time to decide.
Nothing is going to happen or be decided "right now." Whatever does happen is most likely going to take a few months at the least.
You have some time to decide if you should, and what you should say if you do. You are in control of this part of it.

Your post questions whether he needs to hear this or not. I would say that there are 2 questions.

Is there something that YOU NEED him to hear?

Will this make a positive difference to him if he does hear it? This is the same thing as "does he need to hear it."

If there is something that you need him to hear, or rather, something that you need to say, have heard, and have done with it for yourself, then yes, I believe that you should say it.

If not, then it comes back to whether it will make a positive difference to him

I am sorry to say that from your threads and your H's similarities to my STBXW's situations, I don't believe that this would make a positive impact on your H. It might be one of the positives that he holds on to until he begins to come out of this, but it is just as likely to be a "pushing" type of action to him.


About the 2x4s, I'll take all those for you, you don't deserve a single one. I would really appreciate it if my STBXW let me know about things the boys are concerned with.

I'm so sorry. This stinks.

((((()))))

[theforlornhope]

I think you should hold off on letting him verbally know how you feel. You are right that it would be a good 180 since you were non-confrontational through out your marriage. But instead of telling him verbally, your message will be channeled through lawyers as your response to the settlement offer. Gauge that response first, then determine your next move.

RCR has been around a long time here, and has A LOT of wisdom to share.

This doesn't exactly agree with what I wrote, but I think that it is an important angle to consider.

I find that her posts seem to cut to the heart of the matter very precisely.

FWIW,

TFH

[angelica]

w8ting Tamashii posted

Notes on detachment: Detachment is a process. We detach a little at a time. You may notice that you have a drop in PMA just before you gain a new level of detachment. When dealing with a spouse in MLC, you are detaching for yourself. It is not a technique that will bring your H back into the family (though in some cases it can have that affect). Those in MLC have to complete the process in their own time frame. What we do will not usually shift that course. But, it will minimize damage. Detachment is necessary for the LBS survival. We are normally so wrapped up in our spouses that we cannot function when they leave and they cannot separate from us enough to figure out their own issues and quit focusing on us.

With what RCR wrote and others, you probably have your answers. Detachment takes a lot of TIME in my experience, which is why I take issue with those who try and rush it. The experiencing of a drop in PMA before reaching a new level of detachment has been so true in my case. Detachment truly is for us. We are the only one whose choices and actions we have ANY control over.

We all need to detach before we can truly forgive, I believe, not holding on to hurt, or anger. Difficult, particularly if we have had mean and nasty MLcers. But necessary.

A