Plank removed from eye, too late for WAW? 8

[limbo]

I believe that sometimes we just need to get things out there...we are human, and sometimes things just have to be said. Right or wrong its what we needed to do at that time.
Sometime our S are so wrapped up in themselves that we just need to rattle their cages just to make them aware.

Heim..you just need to move on from here and go about your life, and see where things go.
You are doing a great job, and you have been a big help to me!

[Gone Dancin']

GD,

I don't agree with your assessment that I'm trying to control my W. It's obviously coming across that way to you, but that's not what I intend at all.

It's okay if you don't agree my my assessment, Heim -- it's just what I see, and obivously just my opinion. However, that being said, I don't think you're CONSCIOUSLY trying to control her, but that seems to be what your words of choice in the conversation MIGHT come across as (to W, as well). They did to me, anyway. You might unintentionally be doing so, simply because you don't want to lose her. It's natural, human, etc, but being aware of the comments you want to make and how they will come across, what good/bad they will do (or potentially do), etc, is very important at this stage, I believe. You're repeating things that you've already told her in one way or another, so it's not like you're telling her anything new, right? It's like giving her some space that she is needing or asking for, and then just when she's beginning to get it you smother her again with R talk, thereby bringing you back to where you started. Maybe this isn't correct, but that is my interpretation. I honestly believe that your W will come to you and talk about the R if/when she is ready to do so. Give her time to reflect, time for her R to run its course, and allow her the time she needs to become ready to talk. You can't force it, brotha. Don't let your emotions cloud your judgement. Find a balance between emotion and reason, and approach the situation accordingly. Love her enough to let her go, and if she so chooses to come back, that will be the time to have the discussion you are desiring so much. That's my feeling on the matter, but again, it's just my opinion (and that's what I'm here for, right? ).

She called back the second time. Not me.

That's fine, but it still doesn't mean that you should dictate that the convo goes to an R talk, or where that R talk goes. Let her lead the way, then listen, validate, empathize, etc. Don't do most of the talking yourself. That is a primary DBing principle, and I think it is a very founded one (as I believe they all are, though each situation is a little different and thus each principle should be carefully weighed against each sitch).

She also called me about an hour ago to apologize for the tone of an email that she sent to me.

Good. I hope you listened, empathized, and validated. Let her speak her mind, have her peace, and thank her for calling. Again, let her dictate where the conversation is leading, and address it accordingly.

Look, I knew most of what you and OT said above when I hung up the phone after the first call this morning.

I'm glad you did, but the important thing is knowing it BEFORE you get into such a convo with W. It doesn't do much good after the fact, right? Gotta be a step ahead of the convo at all times as much as you can, brotha.

I'm not looking for anyone to blow sunshine up my buttocks, but she did exhibit a few new behaviors today. Any thoughts? She has never expressed a willingness to talk about her feelings about me since, um, April. Seven months solid. Now, perhaps a tiny crack?

First of all, blowing sunshine up there might be a bit unpleasant, and even painful, so I'm glad you're not looking for anyone to do this . As far as the willingness to talk about her feelings, I'm not sure what "talk" she did that you're talking about. Also, I don't think she necessarily did so willingly. You kind of sprung the R talk on her, didn't you, or at least made the first comment that prompted her to mention her feelings. Regardless, I would just take stock of it, continue to do so (see if see mentions her feelings on her own volition), and monitor the results. Also, take into consideration what feelings she is expressing (i.e. what they are, if they're positive or negative, etc), and use it to determine how you approach further communication with her. Use it as a tool that helps you gain ground on your goals.

Going to do my best to reestablish LRT mindset.

Sounds like a good idea -- I do it from time to time too, even though I'm pretty good at giving W more space than is likely even expected.

I still need to put my thoughts together about what I know of my W, my occasional mentions that I think if I could get her to talk things might move in a good direction, and all of this DBing and other, similar R advice stuff.

Think about what I said regarding reason vs. emotion. I think that this is important in lieu of what you said in the above quote. Also, consider what you're saying: "if I could get her to talk." You're trying to control the situation and how/what/when W discusses her feelings and such with you. Whether you realize it or not, this is an attempt to control her choices and actions, and it will not benefit you, my friend. If she's going to do it, let her do it on her time. Like you said, she did mention that she's not ready to talk about it "now" -- let her decide when she IS ready. Don't force it on her, because it is a strong probability that no good will come from it.

Maybe I'm just too stubborn. Probably.

Hmmmmm...

Love ya, brotha (no matter what my posts might suggest)!

GD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

I've been sitting with your descriptions of your last interactions with W. I really didn't know what to say.

The thing that strikes me is you keep posting your convos here, getting reactions, and saying, "I know it might have sounded that way on paper, but in real life it didn't...." Your W is reacting to you exactly as if it *had* sounded that way, at least to her.

When everyone here is saying it sounds like this, and W acts like it sounds like this to her, you're the only one arguing it wasn't like that. I think you never *mean* it like that, but it does come across that way, even here.

Heim, I'm totally with GD. You're STILL trying to control W. It sounds like it to me when I read what you say to her, and, of course, the only thing that matters---she's telling you it feels like that.

Your intentions are totally irrelevant when what you're doing feels like control and manipulation to W. Do something different, for godssake. You're not even giving her the opportunity to come to you.

The good news is, I think there's a lot you haven't tried yet. Like hearing her out and not arguing with her. Like just validating what she says instead of how you meant it. And most of all: Not asking her to talk to you.

I know you think if she'll just open up you'll have a chance. Then you shoot yourself in the foot by asking (demanding) that she do that, instead of letting her come to you.

Heim, if you're successful in your badgering, it's going to be the death knell for your R, I think. Let the woman be. Please. I think I probably like you more than W does right now, and *I'm* feeling harassed reading about your interactions.

You're looking for little rays of hope in the changes of her wording. If it means anything, it feels from here just that you're wearing her down and she's feeling sorry for you because of your Mawmaw. I know, I know, it didn't *sound* that way....

You want so very much for your R to work out. I get that. I know you're trying your hardest. Can you step back and look at it with some distance, as if you were reading about someone else's sitch? What advice would you give yourself.

You're a gift to these boards, Heim---certainly to my own threads. I send this all with the absolute best hopes for you and your M.

(((((Heim))))), sending you huge hugs. And a bang on the ear.

[Heimlich]

The good news is, I think there's a lot you haven't tried yet. Like hearing her out and not arguing with her. Like just validating what she says instead of how you meant it.

I've never got a chance to do this. That's the rub. All I've ever gotten from her were: I'm unhappy, I'm done, We can't work, I don't want to do this, My feelings can't change.

I've never heard from her about what she things went wrong, mistakes I made, etc. GD's right, I've a good idea of what those are, but I never have had the chance to really validate anything because I get nothing from her. A lot of the recent "R" talks is really me telling her that I realize that I made a lot of mistakes because she never said. I guess that's what closure is, at least for me -- I'd like to hear from her why it won't work, what her reasons/thinking is beyond "I just don't feel that way." And, honestly, if it boils down to "I just don't feel that way," my head says I'm better off without her (heart's following a little further behind).

So, that self-justification out -- you're both right with the above. Time for me to stop talking and start living.

Still, it's hard. My head says that this is probably the right way to go. At the same time, one of the things that Michelle says is "you're your own R expert." I continue to have thoughts that if she would do something like KLA or another solution-based program, there'd be a good chance to move forward. And because our previous R dynamic was of me pushing her to be open, it's hard to back off from that.

At any rate, no intention of talking to her, but showing her via an increasingly clean and straightened apt, being on top of scheduling with the girls, and a better me (physically and emotionally) that she's walking away from a lot.

Word of caution for everyone, beware of phone calls and be quick to abort. That first call on Wed spiralled out of control quickly because my emotions got out of hand, which surprised me.

LRT, LRT, LRT

BD

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

All I've ever gotten from her were: I'm unhappy, I'm done, We can't work, I don't want to do this, My feelings can't change.

Have you tried, "You're right, it'll never work, I agree," yet, as an ode to Homer?

I've never heard from her about what she things went wrong, mistakes I made, etc....but I never have had the chance to really validate anything because I get nothing from her.

It would be great if she'd sit down and outline those for you. In the meantime, though, she's told you pretty specific things just recently: that she feels like you're prying, and that the way you keep repeating yourself makes her feel stupid. Start with those (you already did with the one about how you talk, kinda). There's plenty for you to validate, it's just not the stuff you want to validate.

And, honestly, if it boils down to "I just don't feel that way," my head says I'm better off without her (heart's following a little further behind).

You may be right. If you're able to step back, though, she might actually be willing to tell you sometime. I hope you do, and she does.

At the same time, one of the things that Michelle says is "you're your own R expert." I continue to have thoughts that if she would do something like KLA or another solution-based program, there'd be a good chance to move forward.

You may be right again. Knowing that and trying to push her into doing it are two different things, though. Just because you may be right about a possible solution doesn't mean that pushing her to see it that way is helpful.

And because our previous R dynamic was of me pushing her to be open, it's hard to back off from that.

You're saying you've always pushed her to open up, and that's what you're continuing to do? Sounds like a 180 dying to happen to me.

At any rate, no intention of talking to her, but showing her via an increasingly clean and straightened apt, being on top of scheduling with the girls, and a better me (physically and emotionally) that she's walking away from a lot.

That sounds excellent. How's the better you doing?

Word of caution for everyone, beware of phone calls and be quick to abort. That first call on Wed spiralled out of control quickly because my emotions got out of hand, which surprised me.

You're so right about that. It's amazing how fast things can just go nuts. We really have to work hard to keep ourselves in a good emotional place so that these little surprises (like the phone ringing) don't throw us for a loop.

LRT, LRT, LRT

Amen, Heim. You're getting there.

Take care.

[Heimlich]

Originally Posted By: Heimlich
All I've ever gotten from her were: I'm unhappy, I'm done, We can't work, I don't want to do this, My feelings can't change.


Have you tried, "You're right, it'll never work, I agree," yet, as an ode to Homer?

Hmmmm, the closest I've gotten is "We might not be a match for each other. I'm not 100% sure." Have not really had the opportunity to go Homeresque. Given the chance, I might. Not sure if it would work or not.

Each of us has patterns of communicating that we could improve upon. That's what bugs me the most, I've thought a lot about this (not recently, but over the summer) and I think a lot of our problems boil down to poor communication/not really listening to the other person. Something that's so fixable. I feel like the glutton's in Dante's inferno -- the baked ziti is just out of reach.

Originally Posted By: Heimlich
And because our previous R dynamic was of me pushing her to be open, it's hard to back off from that.


You're saying you've always pushed her to open up, and that's what you're continuing to do? Sounds like a 180 dying to happen to me.

Yes and no. Here's where I get conflicted. Yes, historically, I've been the one in our R to surface/expose our problems. She would finally talk to me and we would work it out. I stopped doing that a few years ago because as I've mentioned in my earlier threads, I lost myself for a while. So, she communicated in her way, I realize now, how unhappy she was. I did the same. We missed each other. So, given the circumstances now, what are the odds of her actually approaching me with her feelings? In my mind, not good.

I almost feel like I'm faced with a Gordian knot. Picking at it won't unravel it. Hacking it in half, a la Alexander, might/will amost certainly (especially now) kill any chance with her I might have. Ack.

So, LRT, LRT, LRT until I can think of something else. Going to dive back into the R books this weekend after taking a break to read some fiction, so maybe some new ideas/thoughts will surface -- I hope.

The better me is coming along. Need to get back in the gym and clear some deadlines for work. Had a bit of a pity party for myself -- a low-grade one, but still -- this week. Beginning to snap out of it.

Anyway, redesign meeting for the mag all day. That's at least pretty cool. Now, if I could just get another editor in here (our associate editor left last week), I'd be in decent shape.

As always, Puddle, danka.

BD

[PMA_Baby!]

Hi H - You are getting a lot of great advice here. I know easier said then done. I feel your pain brotha. I'm right there w u. The one part of me is saying u need to stand and fight for your marriage and the other part is saying it's over she's not worth it. But, the part that both of us are trying to ignore and these guys are refering to is the part where it is not up to us. Yes, we want to stand and fight for our marriage but our partners dont. Simple as that. It does take 2. Gd is right when he says save our feelings for when they are ready to come back. If that day ever comes that is. Being lost in the desert for 40 years rings a bell I think Puddles approach saying Have you tried, "You're right, it'll never work, I agree," yet, as an ode to Homer? Is a good place to start.

I spoke w my WAW last night. We are trying to figure out all our investment property crap ofcourse it turned into a R talk. I tried to listen and validate, but like u I still use any opportunity I have w her to make my case. I did validate but I would then go into a long speech about how I screwed up and how because of my insecurities and low self confidence that I did and said the things I did. I like u need to realize it doesnt matter right now. They are still on a different planet and we dont speak klingon. At least I dont. and I dont want to learn. As tough as it is I realize that she has made her decision for now. She is going have to learn the hard way. She does think the grass is greener. So does yours. It sucks to think of our love ones wanting to go out there and be with other people, but it will eventually come back to haunt them. Being a single parent is tough and they will both eventually find out.

God Speed. Have a great weekend. B

[Not Much Left]

BM07
Nice post my friend. Right on.

C

[PMA_Baby!]

thnx man. May the force be with u as well We have to keep fighting the powers of the dark side. Maybe George Lucas was on to something. He did go through a divorce around the same time

[oldtimer]

Lock up the R books. Leave it alone, leave her alone.