NOTE: Please read everything. I mention God several times and I know that turns off many people but this is my personal experience and not my intention to convert anyone. I really need everyone’s help with this.
I bought a copy of “Divorce Remedy” almost immediately after my W told me that she was no longer in love with me and had decided to eventually leave. I had found information on Michele Weiner Davis by scouring the Internet for something that would tell me what to do to save my marriage. I kept most of what was happening very quiet and shared what was happening only with my mother, my sister-in-law and a close friend who is one of those Christians people feel comfortable around. He does not condemn. He shares what is in the bible. He is not preachy unless he is asked what he has learned in his walk. He does not try to force his beliefs on anyone but he is passionate about what is right and wrong if asked. With all of the mistakes I have made, he is never made me feel bad. When we talk, I know with a clear head that I did something wrong, I ask God for forgiveness, and I move on. I know I will make future mistakes and I will gain forgiveness because I sincerely do not want to commit them in the first place. We are all flawed human beings but that does not mean we should stop from doing what is right.
I am writing this to say something that I feel is wrong. I am not targeting anyone specifically but I can point the finger at myself just as easily. Search my posts. Ask others about e-mails I have sent and you will read things that are counter to what I am saying I should do. I understand how everyone feels about what is happening in their lives. I know how it feels to have a spouse say they know longer love you, I know how it feels to have a spouse turn their back on you, I have experienced betrayal, anger, hurt, resentment, the feeling of losing the love of my life, the feeling of loneliness, the desire to be with another woman to fill the wants (not needs) I have as a man, the desire to strike back at my W for what she is doing to me and our children. My children are extremely precious to me. They always have been. The song “Cats in the Cradle” was not identical to my situation but I did take things for granted of time I could be spending with my children.
A mistake I made was to not read “Divorce Remedy” until months later. My W had already left and I made so many mistakes before she left. I did do some positive things. I encouraged my W to go with me to MC. No. She wasn’t receptive and it did not end up where we stayed together but I believe seeds were planted. I also took her to a Marriage Seminar that is hosted by the wonderful FamilyLife organization. At the end of the weekend, she held my hand and said she didn’t want to give me “false hope” but she had stirrings and wanted to explore that. She went back to the work the next day and the OP was there. The stirrings ended or so she says.
I had started bible studies with a group of men that are committed to their families. They are not perfect either. The problem that I find with several types of people is pride (myself not excluded). Pride is the reason why so many good groups and organizations are looked down upon by the general populace. People sometimes believe so strongly in something that they beat you over the head with it instead of saying things gently. Some people want the 2x4 while others cannot handle that approach.
My W did not believe I was sincere in my desire (need) to have a relationship with God. I have believed in God nearly my whole life but never pursued a real relationship with Him. I could not argue with my Ws assessment because many times in the past, I ran to Him when I had problems that were difficult only to put Him on the backburner when everything was resolved. I believe now that it is real because I actually cannot say I regret 100% what has happened because I do have a relationship with Him. My concerns are about my W and my children and how they are coping with everything. It has taken this terrible thing to make me understand that my life means nothing without Him.
Now to the point of this post that will alienate a lot of people from me. I hope that is not the case because I truly care about all of you. I hurt when you hurt. I read your experiences and, in countless instances, my eyes water and my heart goes out to you. I want to comfort you and tell you everything will be all right.
On this site are people from all religious and non-religious backgrounds. I used to be very hesitant to state any of my religious beliefs because of how private an individual I am. I started to share more because I knew that my experiences and beliefs may help a percentage out there with what they are going through. It is still difficult for me to mention my beliefs but I do it because it is the right thing to do. I am not saying thing to make people feel guilty. Only the individual can reflect upon themselves and if they feel what they are doing is wrong, and then the feeling of guilt is coming from their own conscience. I know because several people have pointed things out, not necessarily to me, and I realize that what I have done is not the right thing to do. Personally, I don’t know how I could make decisions without a moral compass because without that anything is okay.
What drew me to this site was that people were here following the principles of Michele Weiner Davis. Quite honestly, many of her principles match what is found in the bible. People are welcome to post whatever they want, feel or experience on this site as long as the moderator does not find the material objectionable. Due to the fact there are a lot of postings, a score of moderators could never read every posting on this site so I am sure that they have software that looks for specific objectionable words. Also, anyone can report something objectionable and have it removed if it is something offensive.
My point is that the site is dedicated to people who are trying to save and/or restore their marriages. It is for standers. It is not a dating site. It is not meant to help people feel better about no longer standing. It is not meant to get approval for moving on. It is for standing for your marriage and seeking restoration. It is not designed to only make us better people even if our marriages do not last.
Something that Michele stated in “Divorce Remedy” was to GAL and to not sit at home doing nothing waiting for your spouse to return to the marriage. She mentioned several things you could do: spend more time with your children; keep a journal; re-invest yourself in spiritual activities; further your education; join a support group; spend more time with friends; devote more time to your career; begin a new hobby; join a health club and read self-help books. Nowhere did she mention that in GAL should we seek a new relationship. I am not condemning anyone for this. It is none of my business. The challenge is that people on the board continuously share that they are in a new relationship, seeking a new one and, in some cases, get quite descriptive.
There is no place on this board to discuss a relationship outside of the marriages we came here to save.
This is going to strike a painful nerve with a lot of people here but it is completely true. For a moment, consider all of the people here trying to stay standing, using the principles by Michele, to withstand what is happening in their lives. They are lonely, hurt, confused, frustrated, and angry. Now we have people saying on this board what all of the rest of the world (family, friends, coworkers, etc/) are saying to us: “Move On”. I have heard so many people tell me and others that there will come a time when we have to move on and say the marriage is not worth saving. Why? Why does anyone need to tell someone else here that there will come a time that we need to move on? We hear this everywhere else. And when someone says it here where we consider this a safe place to receive support for our intent to stand for our marriage, it carries more weight than it should because we “think” we share the same “beliefs” in restoring our marriages.
Instead, I see more and more people justify their need to move on when they don’t have to. It is their decision. They do not need our approval to move on, have another relationship, etc. It is their business. The problem I have is when they seem to look to gain acceptance and, during this, actually gain converts of people that are hurting and tired of standing. I have read posts where people are asking “should I stand anymore?” and the answer from some of the posters are “you have done everything you could. I don’t know if I could’ve put up with what you have”. It would be better to not say anything at all. The person that asked the question is either looking for someone to say “I know you are going through a lot but if your marriage is restored, these tough times will be worth it” or “You have done enough. You can quit standing”. In reading the books by Michele and knowing the board was set up to help people continue standing for as long as possible, the former is better than the latter for the spirit of the board.
I, myself, have been tempted outside of this board to have a relationship outside of marriage. I am a flirt and I have to rein it in a lot. It only leads to reducing my determination to continue doing what I need to do. Simple flirtation and relationships with the opposite sex, sharing personal information in person is very dangerous. We begin to fantasize about relationships with another person who seems to understand us and the pain we are going through. One thing leads to another and we find ourselves with someone because they are there. We convince ourselves this is what is “meant to be”.
We have now justified our spouse’s departure from our marriage. The marriage was not supposed to last and the vows were not ‘til death do us part. Our spouse wanted simply to be happy and it was not found with us so they looked outside of the marriage. We have become hypocrites. Before anyone gets mad at me and doesn’t read on, understand I was being hypocritical. Nothing happened but it came close. I am not better than anyone. I am not stronger than anyone. I was fortunate to have the friend I mentioned earlier stay in contact with me. And I would look at my children and realize I was thinking only of myself and my desires. Desires are not needs. They are wants. Not having a relationship will not kill us. I knew that if I began a new relationship, my children would’ve acted okay with me because I stayed with them and took care of them when their mother left. Inside, they would feel betrayed. I know this because of conversations I have had with many adult children of parents that were the responsible parent but started dating someone new too soon. What is too soon? I don’t know but I will say that anything that your children are not ready to accept is too soon. I know that many people would say “what about my needs or my happiness”. I have heard that from my W and from almost every single poster that this came from their WAS or MLC spouse. When we became parents we took on all sorts of new responsibility. Again, you do not need anyone’s approval on this board to do what you want but you don’t need our acceptance either.
I said this before and I really mean it. I care about all of you. I also care about your spouses and the person they are with. There are so many people that are so lost in what they should be doing. We all could do the wrong thing just as easily but we were forced into being the responsible one and fight for our families. No one is perfect but I remind myself every day to be very cautious in accepting what is wrong. I accept the person, not necessarily their actions. As it is said “love the sinner, not the sin”.
I do not want this to be a post to make enemies of anyone here. I think you can tell by 99% of my posts that I do care about people and want you as my friends but I cannot keep quiet about how I see a place that is supposed to help me stand continue to accept the beliefs that marriages aren’t supposed to last and that it is okay to share personal information that should not be posted here such as relationships outside of marriage. I appreciate those that have stopped standing that encourage people to continue standing. It is possible I missed it but they did not seek approval for no longer standing even though many people came out of the woodwork to say they stood longer than most (and I don’t necessarily disagree).
Michele said there are only three real reasons for divorce: physical abuse, chronic substance abuse and chronic infidelity. I agree with the first two but am not completely convinced about the last one, depending upon the circumstances. Infidelity is not okay and chronic infidelity is really bad. The exception I would have for myself if it was due to a mental illness. I understand people out there that are hurt because their spouse is in an adulterous affair because I am one of them. Everything that I have read has said this is the norm, not the exception in MLC, WAS, etc. Why are we surprised? Yet, time and time again, on this board, I have seen people write that this is the final straw and all it does is incense the rest of us against our spouses that have been carrying on. Those posters that are offended by infidelity to the point forgiveness is not possible post support of ending the marriages because of this marital violation. Please stop for the rest of us who understand that this betrayal is just another symptom of the problems that we are facing. We are all offended and hurt by infidelity so it makes it more difficult to stay standing and not lash out at our spouse for breaking their vows.
I know this is a very long post but trust me when I say there is so much more I would like to say but it would only be offensive and I do not want to offend anyone and make them put up defenses. I am asking that the board be re-dedicated to the standers on this board. I want to hear encouragement to continue standing for marriage. I am asking that relationships outside of your marriage not be discussed for the sake of us who are fighting the temptations to avoid having either an extramarital affair or want to stay standing even outside of divorce. If you have quit standing, I respect your choice to decide but you do not need anyone’s approval or acceptance to stop standing. That is up to you just like any other relationships you may have. There are many people that have been told they are a doormat for standing or for what they are putting up with in their marriage. I am asking to stop being derogatory to people simply because you cannot relate. It is your own reasons for calling someone that and it is none of your business if they continue standing. If you feel they may get better results by doing something different, then make the suggestion positively. If someone would call me a doormat, I have to push down my defenses.
My goal is to become a person that is loving and compassionate. More thick skinned than ever before that does not move me to anger or resentment. I want to be the best possible dad I can be and considered a good friend to people. And I pray every day for my wife, my children, my mom, my sister, myself, the OP, for you and your families to be able to come through on the other side of this seeing us as better from our experiences. I am hoping this board can be, once again, a place of refuge from all of the negativity on marriage and what our spouses are doing/have done.
I am hoping this has a positive response and understanding of the reason why Michele wrote the books in the first place and the purpose of this board. If you don't feel Michele is right, please respect the rest of us that do.
mmf
Me:56, W:51 D:26,S:24,S:22 Married:18 Bomb 9/27/06 Separated 11/27/06 Divorced 10/6/08 Leaving it up to God
Thanks for sharing your heart! I too have noticed that there seems to be an increase in the "moving on" type messages...and I also am somewhat bothered by those who speak about extramarital indiscretions of their own. Those of us "veterans" who have been around for more than a few months can usually sift through that....but, the tender souls who find their way here in the earliest days of their trial might not be so "clear headed". It is for these people that I believe we need to be more sensitive. Thanks again for caring enough to share!
Following in the spirit of Jack3B's closing line....Don't eat that yellow snow!
Praising God Daily, Remaining "FaithfulH" Me: 62 W: 62 D:33 S:30 & 31 Married: 40 Years BD: Sep 2006 Piecing: May 2007 2nd BD: May 2014 Working On It: Today
I am asking that the board be re-dedicated to the standers on this board.
How about those of us who are now divorced, whether we wanted it or not? I am now in the "surviving the big D" forum because I am...surviving the big D. And I believe that this board is for me and those like me, as well as those still trying to save their marriages.
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it as a blanket statement. In addition, there are people here who have tried their darndest to save their marriages and finally came to the conclusion that they have to move on. This board is for them too.
I say this without ill will towards you as you've obviously said this with good intent and forethought. I agree that if you're still trying to save your marriage you shouldn't be in another relationship - and ESPECIALLY if you use this site to find that other relationship. I just don't think that once a marriage is over this shouldn't still be a place one can go to help cope with that as well.
Kev
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising every time we fall." -Confucius
"God alone decides the contest; but we must put our shoulders to the wheel." -Adm. D.G. Farragut
Kevin-38; XW-36 M-2.5, together 4 Bomb-1/6/07; D-6/27/07
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it as a blanket statement. In addition, there are people here who have tried their darndest to save their marriages and finally came to the conclusion that they have to move on. This board is for them too.
I agree completely. Sometimes you reach a point in this crisis, usually years into it, where you feel healthier attempting to move on, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it as a blanket statement. In addition, there are people here who have tried their darndest to save their marriages and finally came to the conclusion that they have to move on. This board is for them too.
I agree completely. Sometimes you reach a point in this crisis, usually years into it, where you feel healthier attempting to move on, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
I am asking that the board be re-dedicated to the standers on this board.
If you want a board for standers then I would suggest Rejoice Ministries or Marriage Builders. That is their express mission. Even Michele says that not all marriages will be saved. And she also tells us to live our lives, something that many standers don't do very well because they hang on every action and words of their MLCer or WAS.
I'd like to think that this board is for all of those who had a desire to do everything in THEIR power to save their marriage.
Note that is a personal THEIR.
What is in one persons power to do, may not be anothers power to do.
Attempts to make everyone behave the same, believe the same, and respond to the situations of life the same don't make much sense to me.
We ALL came here with a desire to save our marriage. Life throws us curves though. Some have found themselves divorced. Some have found that months and years of spousal infidelity was something they realized they could no longer endure or recover from. Do those people deserve to be excluded?
Once a sense of community is found, once we start getting to know each other, and start caring about each other, once we start feeling safe here, would you really ask us to leave because we didn't believe exactly like you?
I don't criticize those who stand. I admire them. I also don't criticize those who choose to move on. I admire them as well. Particularly on this MLC thread we read horrendous stories of mental and emotional abuse heaped on otherwise decent human beings under the all too forgiving umbrella of MLC. It's not a sign of personal weakness to reach a point where you say enough is enough. It's not unreasonable to one day say that too much damage has been done.
And by the same token, there is nothing at all wrong with the person who intends to stand forever. Nothing at all.
The message of this site I believe is that YOU CAN ONLY TAKE CARE OF YOU. Nothing (or at least very doggoned little) that we do makes much of a difference with these spouses who have gone off the deep end. We CAN however make a huge difference in our own lives, and maybe in the lives of our children for those of us who have them.
This site is supposed to be about support and peace.
Forcing others to mold themselves to your own personal beliefs, to do things the way you would do them, is not support.
I agree, we should not be encouraging people to brazenly and without though divorce. But I've not seen many (if any) do that on these forums. But if one of my friends has endured a year or two of abandonment and adultery and has decided that they are ready to move on, I can offer them my support and encouragement that they have made a hell of a lot more effort at saving their marriage than most people have.
I do my best to avoid threads that I know are traveling in a direction that I am not comfortable going. We all can do the same.
I think that's probably good enough.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
You are very brave to share so much of your heart on here.
Yes, you will probably receive many posts from those not sharing your opinion.
Stand firm, do not look to the left or to the right, but stay on the course you are travelling.
God will not steer you wrong.
There is a forum on this board called surviving the divorce, and I have read some of the threads there. I will agree that there are many posters there that did not want the divorce, and are dealing with it and moving on with their lives.
I do agree with you however that the focus here is to save a Marriage not to date others here on the board, or to even begin a new relationship.
Again, I am very proud of you for being so bold!!
Running the race with you.....
((((hugs)))
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
IMP is right, there are sites with express intent dedicated to standing and relying on spiritual faith to support that goal.
I have not read anywhere that this site is provided for any one specific purpose or group. Guess that is why there are forums for Survivors, Piecing, and Just for Fun. However it is true there is not one named Match.com and I do not think I recall anyone ever logging in the first time with that focus in mind. Like any friendly place where people share and relate to each other, sometimes people here build close friendships, and some of them grow deeper. Not the intent. Not a crime. Not offensive if you don't read their thread!
Bless you Bill for your thoughtful response to a potentially confrontational subject. You don't post so often that newcomers would get to know you. Others of us met you when you first arrived, fully dedicated to standing and encouraging everyone else to the same with all your support.
We know you have not changed what you believe; but have had a change in your situation that goes beyond what we all first choose to hope for as our future. Being a fair and intelligent person you embrace others as they are, and accept what you can not change alone. I think we could all learn a lot from you and friends like you that have journeyed onto this forum.
If you know me also, you probably won't be surprised that after giving all this debate some intense contemplation I have only been able to come up with the briefest of responses ....
