an xh, his FF, Thanksgiving, MIL, and one psuedo-R

[Dom R]

PS:

I think you should have replied to his question of "do you think he is ready", with something like,

"yes, I think you are ready. almost no one has zero doubts/worries, when they get married. The only question is whether that person is prepared to deal with issues in a positive way, when they come up. Well, that, and whether or not to stay faithful to that one person, both physically and emotionally.
"
[note that both of those things, are a choice. Emotions may come up by themselves, but we each choose whether to "feed" them or "starve them out".]

[azhira]

Hey Dom...wondered where you had gone off to.

Yes, I've been trying to get that word "choice" in there more often. I do notice it popping up in his vocabulary more often...for example, after my car accident a few weeks back. He said he chose to smoke, in response to the stress. Old habit would have been: "You made me start smoking again." (He's trying to quit. Again.)

I've talked to him about the times I felt tempted myself, how I recognized it, that I made a choice to cut off contact. And why I made that choice. His response in the past always was: "You're stronger than me." We haven't talked about it in awhile.

We've been like this for the past several months...dotted by some blow ups. Seem to get a little bit closer each time through, though. I'm actually in no rush...unlike our last separation, where I felt so insanely desperate. I miss him. I want this to work out. Am I okay if it takes another year or so? I can honestly say yes, because I'd rather we both be happy long-term. I think he kept starting to do this work on himself, then would get interrupted.

Oh...had another thought earlier... I kept wrestling with whether or not I should be more "tough love", or if I should continue to be nice and understanding. I think, in the process, I would swing too far in either direction. I'm learning to find a balance...and that there are times when I should do more of one or the other. Mostly I'm working on being understanding and appreciative, but gently firm with why I find ML right now to be icky. I think I won't beat myself up if it happens again, but xh has said he's trying to restrain himself out of respect for me.

I do notice that the more QT we spend together, the more receptive I am, the more he seems to open up. I don't want think completely withdrawing is the answer. But, maybe setting healthy expectations is.

We had another useful convo just a little bit ago. I think he was calling in response to my "thank you" text, but we wound up chatting for a bit longer. It's nice to know that he appreciates how helpful I am. Again, I do it because I want to, not because I expect anything in return. That's what a real gift should be.

He told me some other interesting things... We talked about JD some. (I know an awful lot about her.) He was saying he had seen bruises on her a few times. I worry about her. I worry her husband is more abusive than either of us knows. xh told me thinks it's sweet that I care. It's hard not to, hearing him talk about the nonsense she has to deal with. I hope she gets out soon.

He also thanked me for just being straight-forward and asking him, non-judgmentally, this morning. He kept saying he would never ditch his son to be, no, to hang out with someone else. (I thought it was weird he corrected the word 'be'. Maybe I'm reading into it too much.) He said that a couple of other times; he also slipped and said he wouldn't ditch 'you guys' on at least one occasion. xh asked why I would think that. I told him it was easy to get caught up in the hype, that it's almost intoxicating. He laughed, said no, no, if that were the case, he would be sleeping on the couch or staying at his place...not in my bed.

So, maybe not as many screws loose in his head as I thought. Just wish he would realize you can't just say those things to a woman (JD), and her not believe there's going to be something more down the road. Ah, well. Can't make him see. He probably doesn't want to, right now, anyway.

xh did emphasize several times how much he liked my approach earlier. He said it was much better than my snooping, and then creating conflict out of it. He said how much he didn't like the conflict. He did mention that I was not making something out of nothing...just that I was creating an argument where he was willing to just answer honest questions honestly. Good thing to know.

We also talked some more about his issues. He talked about how, finally, he is able to distinguish between JD (and others) and his mother. He used to sort of fuse them in his mind...gave him this overwhelming need to help that almost seemed uncontrollable. He'd have all these crazy nightmares, where his mother would be juxtaposed with whomever he was trying to help at the time. Anyway, he noted how he didn't feel that way at all this time.

"yes, I think you are ready. almost no one has zero doubts/worries, when they get married. The only question is whether that person is prepared to deal with issues in a positive way, when they come up. Well, that, and whether or not to stay faithful to that one person, both physically and emotionally.
"

I like how you phrased this. I will have to keep it in mind. xh and I have lots of deep, good conversations on these kinds of things. Will have to mention it when it won't seem too out-of-sync.

[DaveJ]

You know, I wonder if the reason he keeps poking you about picking up a bf is so that he doesn't feel so guilty about JD? Just a thought....

[Dom R]

Wow... really nice stuff I'm glad.

but also some major red flags.

The whole "he saw bruises on her" bit..
There are many, many men who have had affairs, as a result of getting involved with someone to "rescue" them.

he's going to have to let go.
he's going to have to admit that she is not his responsability.. that she is an ADULT, who makes her OWN DECISIONS, and she CHOSES to continue to be with her husband.
It is not his job to comfort her, or console her about that. SHe needs to be talking to a GIRLfriend, or a counsellor, if she has problems, not an escape boyfriend. That is clearly who he is to her.


As far as "Him not knowing"... i cant believe you're falling for that trash again.
He KNOWS he is too involved with her. He told her HE LOVES HER, didnt he???

he knows. He's just not being honest about it, either to you or himself.
He's possibly guilted into maintaing an intimate relationship with her. Silly stuff like "he's all she's got" or something, blah blah blah.

He's got to drop responsability for her, or it will mess the two of you up.

Possibly at some point, say to him, that if he truely cares about HER wellbeing... then it's fairly clear that she has a problem with getting too involved with MEN, than is healthy for her.
So, her being deeply involved with HIM, is not healthy for her.
If he really cared about her for her own sake, then he should encourage her to see a female counsellor, and detach himself from her.


positive: when it comes to just you and him... sounds like you have found a really good balance, that "works". i'd say keep at it, patiently, just like you are doing. I'm jealous

[azhira]

You know, I wonder if the reason he keeps poking you about picking up a bf is so that he doesn't feel so guilty about JD? Just a thought....

Oh, he's always said this when we we're separated. At this point, I've just stuck it in the "weird stuff he says when we're not together" pile.

At first I used to ignore it. Then I'd say "okay". Now, I'm just honest, and tell him it hurts my feelings.

[azhira]

The whole "he saw bruises on her" bit..
There are many, many men who have had affairs, as a result of getting involved with someone to "rescue" them.

Yup, I know this. He has a habit of this. He knows it, too. Just is ignoring it at the moment, for whatever reason.

It is not his job to comfort her, or console her about that. SHe needs to be talking to a GIRLfriend, or a counsellor, if she has problems, not an escape boyfriend. That is clearly who he is to her.

Yup, I totally agree. I saw this months ago. I've even told him those exact things. I'm trying not to be too overbearing with it...can't beat it into him, and all. And, of course, it's not my problem to resolve. I'm trying to just nudge him, point out things when he asks, but leave it up to him. The whole I can't make him see thing.

On the weird/plus side of it all...I know pretty much everything that's going on with her. I know she finally has her visa, so she's now legal. That she has applied for her work visa, and is going to apply for residency now. Supposedly, she is leaving her husband once she has a job. (Hence the need for paperwork first.) I suspect, on his part, that he's also pushing her to leave to validate that he made the right choice in getting D. He keeps saying things like "She has to see it; I made it through." This is something that he's never done before...given me so much detail about whomever he was sidetracked by.

He's just not being honest about it, either to you or himself.

My guess is, to himself. I'm not sure what to say yet without coming across as pushy or demanding. I'd like to get in some more good QT and build in some more good memories before I try another push. I'm thinking, maybe after Thanksgiving. I'm not sure. I have to gauge how open he is to the conversation. It may be awhile. I'm not sure when, but I don't think the time is right at the moment. Too much going on with his mother coming into town tonight. Just going to follow my gut on this one.

I do think it will fall apart, if she ever actually leaves her husband. Their whole R is based on her whining to him about her crappy husband. I never hear him say anything else about her. Once that thread is broken...I bet she will lose interest in him. Isn't that how exit affairs work, anyway?

Possibly at some point, say to him, that if he truely cares about HER wellbeing... then it's fairly clear that she has a problem with getting too involved with MEN, than is healthy for her.

That's an interesting spin...hadn't thought of that.

positive: when it comes to just you and him... sounds like you have found a really good balance, that "works".

Yes, I think so, too. Moreso than any other time in our R. I cannot believe how awesome our communication is now...better than I had ever imagined. Time...

[JennyF]

Azhira,
Well I'm popping in here to see what's going with you.
I am SO impressed with how patient you are. Have you always been this patient or did this come from DB'ing??

I feel bad for JD too. It would seem she is going to be doubly crushed if she's leaves her H and then the R with your XH ends as well. She seems to be quite a needy person and both R's seem to be a bad idea for her.

Possibly at some point, say to him, that if he truely cares about HER wellbeing... then it's fairly clear that she has a problem with getting too involved with MEN, than is healthy for her.

That's why I completely agree with this. It's not really fair to her.
Too weird that I'm discussing what's fair to HER!!!
I just found myself thinking today how my H's OW should at some point realize that she's not being fair to him given that he's got a newborn and just left me 2 mths ago. Yeah right, like she's got a moral bone in her body!

You sound like you've got your own head straight though and that's the important part!
J~

[azhira]

I am SO impressed with how patient you are. Have you always been this patient or did this come from DB'ing??

Got it from DBing. I started back in early '04...so, this is years of practice. It rubs off on others, eventually, too.

I feel bad for JD too. It would seem she is going to be doubly crushed if she's leaves her H and then the R with your XH ends as well. She seems to be quite a needy person and both R's seem to be a bad idea for her.

I guess it's because I hear so much about her. (Which she doesn't know I know.) That, and xh and I aren't really married. I think that's really it.

I couldn't have cared less about xow...I thought she was a nasty wh#$% who intentionally pursued a married man, and tried to manipulate him into leaving me. Or TJ. I hate TJ. I call her LittleMissSk@anky. lol How trashy do you have to be to knowingly (and heavily) flirt with a married man whose wife is expecting? Yuck. (Even with all the snooping, I never did find any ILY's between xh and TJ. Actually, JD is the first time I've ever found such messages.)

Honestly, I think I'm just an empathetic person. Sometimes I'm too nice...which probably has contributed to my current predicament.

Yeah, it occurred to me last night...xh's xgf, S, was pretty much the same thing. Abusive husband, he knew her through work, said he'd "take her", etc., etc. He broke up with her a few months later because she was too meek. I might mention this to him at some time. Not right now, though.

[azhira]

So. MIL got in last night.

Yiiiikes.

It was weird. I remember when talking with xh was like talking to her. (It's not now!!) Some of the highlights:

She told xh he was "not allowed" to smoke at his own home. (xh does not smoke inside or anywhere near the baby. He is smoking on the deck, and working on quitting again. None of her business.)

She told xh that I was going to "kill the baby" (her exact words) because of the traffic in my daily commute.

We are horrible, uncaring parents because we dump our baby off in a "hellhole" (her word) every day. (Translation: daycare is evil.)

She told xh he is just like his father.


Anyway. xh had called me and asked for some help when they got there. He said he needed someone on his side, because otherwise he would be outnumbered.

Actually, I really like MIL's bf. Nice guy. Very easygoing, smart, older guy.

So. My advice all day yesterday had been for xh to just be honest with MIL. That he doesn't have to be mean, but he should be straight-forward...and that he can't control her reaction, only himself. He said he's been getting the same advice from everyone, which made him feel better.

He was really wound up last night after. I had to cut out a bit early, since I needed to put the baby to bed. I did apologize. He got to my place later, said that it only got worse after I left.

xh said his legs hurt, so I spent some time massaging them. I also got him some Tylenol. We talked some more about the no-sex. Every time it comes up, I try to mention why--that it's icky while he's involved with someone else. (Thanks, Dom.) Maybe it'll sink in sooner or later.

So. While reflecting over all the events, I realized several things.

xh is used to people taking things back when they are mad at him. MIL is supposed to give him a car; he is convinced it will be withdrawn when she realizes she's not going to play nanny with DS. (Note to self: Continuing being his friend, sticking to my commitments, and not changing our interactions even when I'm mad at him is a good path, after all. I see the no-sex as a boundary for me, not a punishment.)

xh was saying how he needed more cigarrettes and wine. I pointed out (gently) that he was reverting to a bad coping mechanism. He said he knew, and would clean it up once his mother is out of town. (They are going somewhere, not sure where, in a couple of days.)

xh has multiple layers of feelings going on...a conscious level, and an unconscious one. I think this explains the dichotomy I pick on him about myself and JD. On one level, he is not consciously aware that he is playing wife with me, and gf with her. I think a good dose of denial, coupled with self-preservation-learned burying of feelings, lead to this. (xh and I were talking yesterday about his habit of just burying uncomfortable stuff in the past, and how he is working to undo this now.)

I saw a music folder on his computer titled "JD and [xh's name]". Come on. That's so high school, it's kind of funny. When I mentioned it, he just got so genuinely confused looking, and said I was making something of nothing. I'm pretty good at telling when he's intentionally lying to me, even if I don't know what or why. And he didn't think he was here. He just didn't see it.

On the other, more buried level, he must know something. Why else would he get uncomfortable when I try to (gently) poke holes in his reasoning? Why else would he clam up so much about it? (Other than his whole insane thing about being contradicted.) And why bother to hide other things? I do think part of it is fear of confrontation, but there seems to be more.

Anyway...no, I don't think this is hopeless. We both have learned so much about what is and is not appropriate marital behavior over the past few years...my view on it now is so very, very different. As is his.

I think the key is to talk about it rationally, and in context. Like we would discuss a movie or some such. I know he hears me, I know he thinks about it, and I know he is working on changing himself.

Actually, I made sure to tell him this morning. I was worried--and told him so--that he'd lose his progress because he'd stress too much over his mother. I told him that he's doing great, his communication is great. And, that if anyone should be mad at him...it would be me. I think he needed cheering up...his self-esteem seems to take a beating when he's around her for awhile.

[Dom R]

He keeps saying things like "She has to see it; I made it through."

WHOA.. that is really really worrying.
That sounds like an affair partner, who has "done his part of the deal", and is now waiting for her to follow through with her part of it.

I saw a music folder on his computer titled "JD and [xh's name]". Come on. That's so high school, it's kind of funny. When I mentioned it, he just got so genuinely confused looking, and said I was making something of nothing. I'm pretty good at telling when he's intentionally lying to me, even if I don't know what or why. And he didn't think he was here. He just didn't see it.

last few sentances of that didnt quite make sense to me, but...
this sounds very very bad.

you may have to deal with the issue that part of him wants to be with you.. and part of him wants to be with her... and when she's free, that "other part" may actually go right out the door and be with her, unless he decides to give her up before then.

hope I'm wrong.

On the other, more buried level, he must know something. Why else would he get uncomfortable when I try to (gently) poke holes in his reasoning? Why else would he clam up so much about it? (Other than his whole insane thing about being contradicted.) And why bother to hide other things? I do think part of it is fear of confrontation, but there seems to be more.

this, suggests that I am right, however.