If Heim's W was aching for contact, she would have snapped up the lunch invite. She said "no" in the politest way possible, probably because of his recent loss.
Not bad. Bit of a backslide, but don't think all bad.
Had a quick email exchange with W this a.m. about logistics with the girls for the next few days. Offered her a final invite to hang out for Thanksgiving. She replied, 'Final answer. No.' Realizing that I sounded a little pushy, was going to leave a VM for her on her phone. out of the ordinary, she actually picked up.
Me: Wanted you to know that I just realized that it sounded kindof pushy about Thanksgiving, like I was trying to find out your plans, but . .
W: That's what it sounded like to me.
Me: Let me finish, I'm just concerned about you being alone on the holiday and that your company would be welcomed by both me and the girls.
W; It did sound like you were trying to pry and it makes me angry/bothers me/something to that effect.
Me: I know, I apologize. I know you're seeing him, so that's fine. I just didn't want you to be alone and it bothers me that you automaically assume the worse intention whenever I ask/offer something to you.
W: I have my life. You have yours.
Me: That's right, if it were anyone else, it would hurt, but it wouldn't bother me that much. I'm on the edge of moving on and that scares me.
W: What bothers you so much
Me: That the symptom of our marital problems might have a hand in parenting my children. I may be wrong, but I see him as an emotional leach, who couldn't sustain his own marriage, then glommed onto two women who were unhappy in their own marriages. The thought of a person like that involved in my childrens' lives disgusts me.
W: I disagree.
Me: Why can't you ever just say yes or no that you're with him? As you say, it's your life.
W: I don't want to talk about this right now. It's none of your business.
Me: have you ever thought about us getting back together?
W: Not really.
couple of quick kid things then 'bye' by both of us.
That call really went off track quickly, eh?
She called back a few minutes later. Which I found odd.
W: I didn't wnat to end our conversation that way. I don't like being mean or hurting you, but I have my life and you have yours.
Me: I agree and I'm living my life the way I want to. I asked because I still care about you.
W/Me: both talking at the same time, I asked if she would just listen. She said yes.
Since you hit me on the back of the head with a rolled up program 17 years ago, not a day, until recently, has gone by when I didn't love you or think about how my decisions would affect you. I still love and care for you, but I find myself for the first time on the edge of not caring/loving (can't remember the exact wording) you and that scares me. It scares me because it's new and because I still believe that we could have a better R than before. I've done a lot of thinking over the last few months and realized a lot about myself. You weren't the only one that gave up on our M. In many ways, I had too. The fact that you stayed with me for as long as you did when I was unhappy is a testament to how much you did love me. And I wasn't happy. And you didn't deserve to be married to that person. I understand now that when you left in April that we could not have been happy. That i couldn't give you what you need. When we tried a year ago, I didn't know what I was doing and you've admitted to not trying 100%. I firmly believe that we could be soulmates, or, as I prefer to put it, have a lifelong love affair. In many ways, it would be easier to start over with someone new. We've hurt each other alot over the years, and I'm just beginning to understand that. When I look at you, I see a person I love and want to be with. I don't think about anything else. While it didn't seem like it, I was over the A back in Dec/Jan. I could listen to love songs again and drive by hotels without my stomache curling into a knot. Today, I think it took a lot of courage for you to leave. Your leaving was the kick in the ass I needed to finally realize many unattractive things about myself. We could find out that I can't give you what you need and/or that you can't give me what I need in a relationship. It just seems that a lot of our problems had to do with talking to each other, lack of communication. We knew each other for so long that we started to assume what the other was thinking/feeling and just stopped asking and listening to each other. I mean, for years, I didn't really understand what you did (still don't totally, pretty technical for me) and for a H not to know what his W does is criminal and something I'm ashamed off. I also realized that I wasn't happy for a while. I'm working on making myself a better person, and i feel good about where I'm going. However, back in March, I was happy. I was happy because I thought we were going to make it and that being with her made me happy. I realize now that isn't enough and that I still wasn't happy in myself, but that's changed.
W: I don't want to talk about this right now. I can't talk to you, that's why I'm quiet. I try to get something out, but it just gets stuck.
Me: That's fine. Will you ever be able to talk to me about this?
W: One day. Just not now. I'm not ready to talk to you about any of this.
Me: That's fine. Asked her if I talk like my step-dad (repetitive and annoying, stressing the same point over and over).
W: Yes. and it makes me feel stupid.
Me: I just realized this. It's not something I'm proud of. I don't mean or want to make you feel stupid, I want to know what you think.
W: You always say that's just the way you talk.
Me: I didn't understand how aggravating it was until just now.
W: I need to get going.
Me: me too.
If anyone had asked me, oh, 3 hours ago if I would have had these conversations with me W, I would have said "no effing way."
Couple of positives: 1. Monday, and I forgot to type this, she had said something fairly mean and I just asked "do you just not like me?" she said, "No, i like you." This is very different from about 3 months ago when the answer was "I just don't like you very much." 2. She called back to apologize. 3. She listened and expressed a willingness to talk in the future -- that's 100% new. 4. I could be wrong, but I don't feel that she's in the same type of R with OM as she was last summer. Obviously, i could be wrong, but there it is. 5. My W holds things and holds things inside. As I've mentioned a few times, I feel like if I can get her to open up to me that either we'll move closer or I'll get some form of closure (while I have a pretty good understanding of what went wrong, I'd like to hear from her exactly what happened). If I could just get that boil lanced . . .
OK, beyond the "no R conversations" advice -- any thoughts?
BD
Last edited by Heimlich; 11/14/0706:48 PM.
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
OK, beyond the "no R conversations" advice -- any thoughts?
First thought -- you're an emotional masochist. Now, onto the conversation you had...
Quote:
Me: Let me finish, I'm just concerned about you being alone on the holiday and that your company would be welcomed by both me and the girls.
W; It did sound like you were trying to pry and it makes me angry/bothers me
Don't you think she knows her company would be welcomed by you guys? And I understand where your W is coming from with her feelings because it is obvious that you're dying to know what her R status is with OM. You're still obsessing about it, evidence by your statement, "Why can't you ever just say yes or no that you're with him?". Why are you concerning yourself -- and grilling the W about -- something you have NO CONTROL OVER, Heim?!
Quote:
I know you're seeing him, so that's fine. I just didn't want you to be alone
You're overtly manipulating her with comments like these. In addition, it's not your place anymore to decide if she will be or wants to be alone or not. Let her decide for herself, man. You trying to tell her what is best for her (like what she should be doing for Turkey day, that she should be calling and communicating with her parents, etc) tells her that you a) don't trust that she can make decisions that are best for her or that will make her happy, and b) don't respect her decisions and therefore don't respect her. If you love her, Heim, love her enough to SHOW her that you respect her and trust that she will make decisions that will make her happy. That's unconditional love, my friend.
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That the symptom of our marital problems might have a hand in parenting my children. I may be wrong, but I see him as an emotional leach, who couldn't sustain his own marriage, then glommed onto two women who were unhappy in their own marriages. The thought of a person like that involved in my childrens' lives disgusts me.
W: I disagree.
And now she'll dig her heels in even more because of your statement above. You've pushed her farther away from you by saying this, because even if you end up being right in the end, she will resent you for it. You're a "right-sayer" in Dr. Phil terms. You're basically telling your W that she is not able to make good decisions or decisions that are best for her, and that you know better than she does. Can you see how unattractive and repelling that is. Seriously. I'd be pissed if I was your W, because she already knows that you've thought this in the past. You bringing it up again demonstrates that you haven't changed as much as you'd like her to believe. As intelligent as you are Heim, the fact that you think bringing this stuff up is going to do you ANY good is absolutely astounding to me.
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Me: have you ever thought about us getting back together?
W: Not really
And she's going to think about it less by doing what you did with this conversation.
Quote:
That call really went off track quickly, eh?
And why do you think that is? Did you expect it to go any other way?
Quote:
I'm on the edge of moving on and that scares me.
Making statements like these will only hurt you because you will have to back them up with action and true detachment and letting go/moving on, otherwise she will she your statement as a lie -- a manipulative ploy to get her to come back. Are you prepared to move on, Heim? Methinks you're not -- not yet, my friend, and your conversation shows that.
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Me: That's fine. Asked her if I talk like my step-dad (repetitive and annoying, stressing the same point over and over).
W: Yes. and it makes me feel stupid.
Hope you made a BIG note about that and make a VERY conscious effort to change this.
Quote:
I feel like if I can get her to open up to me that either we'll move closer or I'll get some form of closure (while I have a pretty good understanding of what went wrong, I'd like to hear from her exactly what happened). If I could just get that boil lanced . . .
Stop trying to control what she wants to do. You're being selfish, man. This whole conversation was about you and what you need. The whole conversation. Even the alleged concern about W being alone on Turkey day. It was 100% transparent that you really just wanted W to be with YOU on Turkey day, and equally apparent that you didn't want her to be with OM on Turkey day. Your jealous and attempt to parent your W is just pushing her farther away, Heim. And even if her R with OM doesn't work out, your actions like those in your recent post will cause her to not want to come back to you either. Let that R run it's course. If they stay together, it's not something you can control. If they break up, it again isn't something you can control. Love her enough to let her make her own choices. You have no say in those choices in anymore. It isn't your place, Heim. It isn't your place.
I'm sorry that I was so blunt, but you've been here long enough and experienced your backslides long enough to know this was a bad idea -- and yet you did it anyway. Like I said at the top: I think you must be an emotional masochist.
Dunno, the first call didn't start off that way and written out, sounds much worse than it was.
Regarding my statement regarding OM, she asked. Probably should have bit my tongue, but there it is. Knowing my W, whatever I say/do on that isn't going to matter. What's going to matter is, as you say, showing her I'm moving on.
Regarding Thanksgiving. She's said she's volunteering, which is cool. Whether she spends it with me/the girls, OM, or solo is her choice. I can say that my intentions were pure on this one. In all honesty, if she were to just say, "I'm spending the day with Tom" that'd be fine.
Quote:
Are you prepared to move on, Heim? Methinks you're not -- not yet, my friend, and your conversation shows that.
Actually, if you look at the last page or second to last page of my last thread, I'm currently holding duel thoughts in my head. I prefer that my W and I reconcile. I'm living like that's not going to happen. If the opportunity to go on a date or even enter another R comes along, I'm at a point where I'm interested in pursuing that. Not terribly quickly, but I am.
And, yes, I have a hard time letting go of the idea of hte OM being a step-father to my kids or even being introduced to him. The thought sickens me. If she were to meet someone new, it would hurt in the sense of 'oh, she's seeing someone and not me', but it'd be a hell of a lot easier to deal with.
Anyway, gotta run to a meeting. Will chew on your thoughts more.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
I don't agree with your assessment that I'm trying to control my W. It's obviously coming across that way to you, but that's not what I intend at all.
My error was realizing that what I was doing via email sounded like a fishing expedition (about what she was doing) when it wasn't, then calling to tell her I wasn't on a fishing expedition, that whatever she was doing was fine and then I started talking/responding honestly to her question.
She called back the second time. Not me.
She also called me about an hour ago to apologize for the tone of an email that she sent to me.
Look, I knew most of what you and OT said above when I hung up the phone after the first call this morning.
I'm not looking for anyone to blow sunshine up my buttocks, but she did exhibit a few new behaviors today. Any thoughts? She has never expressed a willingness to talk about her feelings about me since, um, April. Seven months solid. Now, perhaps a tiny crack?
Going to do my best to reestablish LRT mindset.
I still need to put my thoughts together about what I know of my W, my occasional mentions that I think if I could get her to talk things might move in a good direction, and all of this DBing and other, similar R advice stuff. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. Probably. Accept. Move on. Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
When I read your post re; the convo w/ you W my stomach did a few turns.
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I'm not looking for anyone to blow sunshine up my buttocks, but she did exhibit a few new behaviors today. Any thoughts? She has never expressed a willingness to talk about her feelings about me since, um, April. Seven months solid. Now, perhaps a tiny crack?
There appears to be new behavior, only it isn't exactly what I'd call positive. She doesn't want to talk about her feelings with you, & pushing/twisting/creating opportunities to bring about a R talk will almost definitely send her further away.
I know it's difficult to hear that someone doesn't want to be with you. The C yesterday told me that my H isn't present for me &, like that book title "He's Just Not That Into You", has had no interest in being with me.
Even though that's an ouch, it's the reality of where he is. It's a good thing my self image is not tied to how he thinks of me, & I know that feelings can change. (just not if I pursue/argue/etc.) Mostly from this board & DR, etc., I see that a mention of how we could be future "soul mates", would send him running for the hills to get away. It would have the same effect on me, afterall.
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I still need to put my thoughts together about what I know of my W, my occasional mentions that I think if I could get her to talk things might move in a good direction, and all of this DBing and other, similar R advice stuff. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. Probably.
I know it's difficult to hear that someone doesn't want to be with you. The C yesterday told me that my H isn't present for me &, like that book title "He's Just Not That Into You", has had no interest in being with me.
Hey, Sunny, seems we're both confronted with spouses who just refuse to accept how wonderful we are, eh?
I've been hearing some variation of that from her since April. My self-esteem is no longer tied to that, but, yeah, "Ouch" to say the least.
My "occassion mentions" that you quoted me was refering to the few times I've mentioned that here. The last two times that I had a R talk with my W (today and Oct 13), I initated by blowing whatever gasket in my head that keeps breaking when confronted with these situations BUT my W kept the conversation going. I've not out of the blue ambushed her with a "hey, I think you're a fool and we could be wonderful together" talk in a while. And, saving OT and GD's fingers, I'll point out that that "while" isn't/hasn't been long enough.
I looked back over what I posted, and I didn't prompt her "I don't want to talk about this now" statement. Actually, just realized that over the summer, she was a stone wall or plain "I just don't want to talk about it." I know it's one word, 'Now', but she's used it a few times.
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I see that a mention of how we could be future "soul mates",
Believe it or not, chose those words purposefully. Hard to explain, but she thinks in those terms. My preference is "lifelong love affair." I also, over the past few months, put in the caveat that we "could be" not "will" or "can" or any variation of "if we try, it'll work." I don't know if we could be a good couple again. I'm pretty damn sure we could be, but not positive.
W just called to tell me a few things about both daughters. She actually stretched the conversation into other chit-chat for a bit. A 5 minute call went 20 minutes. Friendly.
Ack. I'm too tired and confused to type anymore. I will say this, I've skimmed my last two threads. I come across here as thinking of my W as the center of my universe. Ain't so.
Best to all.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
I can't say I blame you for even pushing for a small positive. It has only been almost 2 months for me since D-day and I so want H to SPEAK. It gets very tiring waiting, waiting, waiting. I would say get out more...do more than you are already doing to GAL. Perhaps you need to fill your brain with other different things. You said she thinks in those terms, well maybe she USED to, but now she does not...she has changed into a different person as have you. Hate to be harsh here, but maybe that's the case.
I try to think of H now as someone I could possible date again, so I have what Michelle calls the beginners mind in that sense. So I have to work at trying to build his friendship all over again as darkly strange as that feels. Then sometimes I look at him and think 'do I really want to be with someone who is that weak?' LOL
My H has recently gotten into making sure everyone around us knows we are getting a D, making it sound to them like I want this too, but he has YET to do anything about it as far as I am concerned. Not filing, not leaving house, not spending all his time with OW. very curious and I find it very amusing.
Detaaaaaaaaaaaaaach again. I know I will need this reminder, so I hope you will be there for me too Heim!
Me:49 H:47 S: 16 T:27 M:25 My EA: 2001 His PA: 10/2007, 6/2013 Separated, but H still in house
Find your Shambala: a place of peace and happiness.
