All hope is lost/help

[Evie]

Do you think in saying what I said that H may think that i will be ok with him seeing o/p but not right now? I would hate myself if I thought i'd given him the impression it will be ok for him to see o/p in the future but not right now?

[cat03]

don't kill yourself analizing everyword you say, I think what u said was fine hon.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Disappointed,

I've been lurking awhile reading your posts and sending you positive thoughts. But now I feel compelled to ask a few questions. First, did you really read the Divorc Remedy/Busting books? Remember that doing the same thing over and over (pursuing) should be stopped if it isn't working?

You've really got to work on detaching big time. Stop analyzing what he says/does/wonder what he's thinking/feeling/doing, etc. You have no control over that and it's consuming you. Plus, it is not working. Please recall the whole 180' concept and do it as much as possible.

Also, your time line is so short. I am in "piecing" and I'd give my M a pretty good shot at long term success. We've come a long way. I wouldn't have believed it 2 years ago. But we've been at this MLC thing for 2 years. Yep, YEARS. Not all bad or downhill moments, but 2 years of not knowing what the hell was happening in my M. So, my point is you need to detach and take the big view here.

First, You are modelling for your children a very important lesson. Someday, each of them will face a painful setback or betrayal of sorts. You need to show them that even though pain like this does hurt, it is not fatal and is NOT eternal. You DO recover. You WILL laugh again, you will love again, whether it's him or another man, or a "cause", new activity, you will show your passion again.

For now, be a woman only a fool would leave. A woman who is Upbeat, looking forward to HER future b/c she's interesting, fun, intelligent, a good mom to her kids (and his kids), hardworking, etc. NOT b/c she "needs" him.

You must back off. He has told you pretty much that he felt too responsible for everyone, "burdened". So you need to back off and give him space. Don't "burden" him anymore with your needs. I know this sucks. Believe me, I get it.

I had several sessions with a DB coach and although it costs a lot, it was actually cheaper for me than local T's were, if I bought 3 sessions, which I did. It helped me a great deal with making goals that were manageable.

"Reconciling" is NOT your goal for now. Backing off and GAL are your goals right now. Find ways to measure "success" in shorter time spans so you can measure progress. Count days you DON"T call him (unless it's about kids or mandatory issues) and pat yourself on the back when you "survive" without contacting him or obsessing. Build on any "conflict free" talks with your h but don't initiate them. No R talk from you either. Sorry if it sounds as if I'm lecturing, but I'm just passing things I learned the hard way, on to you.

It just seems your h needs to solve this puzzle without you standing over his shoulder telling him where the pieces go, or wondering when he's going to come back, or if he will, reading into everything, and whether he'll be with OW, etc. When he said the "last thing he wants now is another R" what he is saying, (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THERE IS OW)is that he does Not want the responsibility for one. Yes it is selfish and alien and crappy and unfair. But if you want to DB at least for now, then Minimize the "pressures" on him now. You want to be the safe place for him, the refuge, place of comfort, warmth, not the one making more demands. What he needs to see is the cost of his "freedom" (no time as a family, no sense of home, less time with the boys, less money, and less companionship with someone he has history with--YOU).

So, except for what he HAS to do for the kids, or the business, can you back off? Be independent. Is there a way you can avoid working together so much? Hard to see much mystery here. You guys spend so much time together even now, it's harder for him to see changes in you or the R, with so much daily contact.

Also, I see it as a HUGE positive that he wants the boys when he can be with them. Honestly he can't win with you here. IF he didn't want to see them as much as possible, you'd be angry at him for deserting them. Instead, you're angry that he wants to be with them but not you....okay, by now it is clear he needs some space. Why is this a surprise? This is Not about you. This is about your h and whatever the hell is going on with him. The more time he is with the boys (assuming it's his choice) the better for them, and probably the better for the M in the long run. Men care about the mothers of their children, if they don't have to feel guilty constantly. Guilt is easily converted into anger. Ignore his anger and hide yours when he's around. Otherwise you'll push him further away b/c you'll be validating how miserable it is to be around you ("see, she's ALWAYS mad," etc) .

You have to counter his negatives (and the justifications he's scrambling to find)) with positive images. The warmth of your home, the fun you and the kids have, (especially the boys if it comes down to it), your humor, etc. Trust that the love you once had and the good memories/history will re-surface, if allowed. Let it happen. You can't force it. I hope this makes sense. I personally don't see any advantages to snooping about OW or obsessing about it. Honestly, it'll consume you and you have NO control over it. Let that sink in. Plus, even if he is having an A, it is not always fatal as this bb reveals often.

PMA is also about you being ready to move on with your life, AND/OR being open to a reconciliation. You can close the door without locking it. For now, he wants out. You have no choice with that. You can only show the kids that you (and THEY) will be happy again, active, etc. What if your h had died and the grief process had passed enough for you to have healed some? Please don't teach your daughters that they have to have a man in their life to affirm their value. Regardless of whatever is happening in your h's head, you cannot let HIS choices ruin YOUR LIFE.

What would you be doing with your time? Time that you are now spending thinking/worrying about him? Can you do any of those things now?

I don't mean to hit you over the head with a 2 x 4. But, I've seen myself and my younger sister in your posts and it doesn't work and it doesn't feel good and it isn't great for the kids either. GAL, work on the PMA, lose the anger in front of him, (countering his negative images with positives), and once again remember, be a woman only a fool would leave.

sending you hugs and prayers-
j-

[Evie]

J,

Thanks for your thoughts, prayers, good vibes etc.

I don't have time right now to reply, but a quick question that I need an immediate answer on:

It's H's Birthday tomorrow, he will be round here first thing after I leave for work. I have a present and a card for him. I guess from what you are saying I shouldn't be giving him the present or the card?

XD

[25yearsmlc]

Dear AHLH,

well, give him something nice from the boys and a generic card signed by them and Maybe you. For our 25th anniversary my h (actively MLC at the time) gave me an expensive gift and acted as if all was well, although he was moving to Alaska 3 days later ( I know, I know, crazy alien).

I made him a photo album with a card saying "It's worth remembering" and I played up the family times and was more subtle on the couples things. But he seemed to think he could do what he wanted until if and when we were together, but acted like my "husband" when together UNLESS I expressed any anger or frustration, etc. Then I got the alien spew total marital revision...I mean TOTAL marital revision.

I also took the 3 kids to Italy for a trip I Wished had been an anniversary gift. But I promised myself I would be doing something great on the anniversary and not be alone. I was surprised my h came down at all, let alone for the anniversary. Like it was a grand gesture in the face of an idiot move. So I moved the trip back a few days so when he left for Alaska, WE left for Europe. (He has apologized and admitted it was a mistake but to my ears, the last week was the first time I'm sure he said it to ME...so don't hold your breath).

SO< I have to say that the trip was fantastic and proved to me and the kids we could have a blast and do a big thing, without h...and it was probably more fun without h, honestly. I'm SO GLAD I did that, no matter what my credit cards say. My kids are spread out in age, like yours. It's rare to have them on a trip all together with very little tension and a lot of memory creation. I'm glad I kept that promise to them and me, and the planning of the trip was a joy in itself. And guess what? I learned later that it bugged the crap out of my h that we'd go without him, but I had no idea he would come down to California wehre we lived (naturally he didn't have the real time for a trip to Italy and finally I did Not plan a trip around him...thank God). It was a painful signal to him that I was moving on, doing fun things, whether he was there or not. We called him once or twice but it was hard to get through. I later learned that freaked him out b/c the day we left was a terrorist day (if ykwim) and somehow he worried a lot....NOT MY PROBLEM and welcome to the worry club.


If you've gotten him something like a CD that he likes, something small, maybe go ahead. But I cannot imagine the signal you're sending by givning him a "wife"s" gift. For now, you are his "friend" or "co-parent" and your ONLY reasons for talking to him now are the kids and business --and make it important. Otherwise ,you reveal that you are not busy enough in your exciting life moving on into Your future...and you will be soon. Don't make excuses for contacting him.

Let him miss you and what it meant to be a family/husband. If you keep treating him as if he's simply on vacation of sorts, what's there to miss?

I recall I began making plans for an overseas teaching job I'd always wanted. OMG I was actually getting excited about being single and making choices for ME and the kids and not his career. I also interviewed for new jobs, some in my area and it was definitely noticed by him. Not mentioned for awhile, but noticed. Your h is noticing more than you realize.

Good luck. Wish him a happy b-day and like I said, if it's small, or from the kids, fine. Expect NOTHING substantial in return. You are only doing this small gesture because he is the father of the boys and Not to pursue or hope for a crumble of gratitude thrown your way. Besides, if it causes him guilt, it will backfire on you.

Good luck,
j-

[Evie]

Hi

Thank you for taking the time to read and post, it means much. I am confused and need all the help i can get, even if you do need to bash me around the head with 4 x 2.

Well I did leave my present with the kids to give to H, it was a practical present and not as over board as I would normally have gone. I haven't booked dinner or made a special breakfast or a birthday cake, all of which I would normally do. Girls emailed me to say H was emotional opening his cards and presents. The boys gave him a dvd and a framed photo of themselves.

I have my A in a month, I have bought a card, but not sure whether to give it to him or not yet. My birthday is also at xmas!! H has really disappointed me for my birthday for the last 2 years (huge effort for my 40th then nothing), so i decided to take control of it myself - i have bought tickets for the panto for the boys and myself and friends, then hopefully we'll go out for a meal. H knows i have a ticket for him also, but i've decided not to give it to him. New Year I am staying with H's brother and family a 100 miles away.

I have no expectations of him and I did have high hopes, I know he remains good friends with all of his x girlfriends. But I think the issues he may have with me, he may have had with his last x, she was looking for commitment and babies, he broke up with her and then got back together again and he said he realised when he got back with why he had finished with her, basically I think it boils down to issues in childhood and lack of communication skills.

When the bomb was dropped in May I tried to plan something every month for me and the boys/girls to look forward to. This was a 180 for me, as H always plans holidays etc.

I agree pretty much with everything you say. I have read the books but i'm struggling to set goals and work out what my repeat behaviour is. I thought I was doing a pretty good job with the PMA and I'm trying with the GAL. I have the wobbles when something comes up that throws me, normal i guess, but I realise that instead of rushing in I need to find a copying strategy. I know i obsess and over analyse, I always have done.

I haven't bolted the door on a reconcilation (i'm not sure I would want him back right now anyway, there are too many issues as far as i'm concerned). H didn't give me a reason what went wrong with him or the R, I don't talk about the R with him, apart from my slip the other day. The thing is H calls/email/texts me all the time and I don't understand why?? i asked the board for advice on this. I try and treat him as a friend and keep the connection by talking to him, (how could we recocile if we are not even friends?? I need to find a compromise of sorts here. I nearly always delay answering his calls or ignore them (today so far he has called 11 times). How can i distance and let him notice the changes in me or the r if he won't distance himself and keeps calling me?

We have sorted the visitation and finances out, but i agree that he needs to see 'the cost of his freedom'. I invite him to lunch every sunday, so that he can be involved in the family, but maybe I won't do it so often. Also, he will find a reason geniune or other to pop to the house. I don't like all this frequent contact, he seems to stock up on us and then returns to his solitude. I think your'e right and he does need to MISS us all a little more often.

Thank you for listening and posting

XD

[Evie]

Quick update on the phone calls this morning.

H called me 15 times until he went through reception rather than my private line so that the call would come up as an unknown caller.

He called me to talk about xmas presents!! I wished him a happy birthday and he thanked me for the presents and said they were very nice.

He said he had called loads of times. I told him I was really busy and it wasn't always appropriate to take his call.

Then I had 2 emails. One to say he wouldn't ask me about work again (the events that were happening to prevent me from answering his calls were confidential and would have compromised me) and the second was to ask why i din't return the calls in my lunch break when I was quite. That would have been because I was on the boards.

I have since replied to his email and said that I would appreciate some respect when at work that I am busy, i'm quite prepared to talk about my day but in the evening not during the day, and if he wanted to know about my day then he could call me then. I said I respected that when he is teaching I don't interupt his work even if it were to be an emergency.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Dis,

(Let's get a different name...) Anyhow, I think you need to set some boundaries. IF you feel you cannot say "don't call unless it's about our children" b/c let's face it, you really have been shut out of the rest of his life by His choice....then try answering all questions with "yes" and "No" unless it regards the children. If he finds it rude, tell him you find that ironic, and that you are simply trying to move on in your life. It's hard for you to move on when he keeps popping up, surely he isn't that clueless. Do NOT fear that telling him you want to move on will push him away. It won't. IF anything, IF anything, it'll start to wake him up. But don't do it for that reason either.

He HAS said he wants out of the M, right? Well, then what IS with all the calls? He wants to either 1) have you stay connected enough for him to go back if and when he wants to, or 2) he's checking to see if he's losing you, AND OR 3) he feels guilty and this makes him feel as if he's still kind to you. SO, if I'm correct, then what possible benefit is it to YOU, to answer, let alone even entertaining his questions about why you haven't rushed to return his calls? Is he insane? HE'S LEAVING YOU!!

This isn't about punishing him, it's about saving yourself and your heart and sanity. If he's IN your life as your h and father of the kids, that's one thing. If he wants out of the M then he's a "co-parent" to 2 kids...period. And weirdly, in your situation I guess, he might also be a business partner. What else is there to talk about? I hope you can get out of the business or constant contact sitch with him...gross...

Minimize the contact for YOURSELF, and maybe also b/c it'll alert him to the possibility that you might actually Not revolve around him...nor does your life, or the earth.

Also, as to lunch on Sundays, why do you have to be there? Isn't it for the boys? Why can't you be busy and let him have the kids to himself while you go off mysteriously to do your new thing (dressed WELL and looking GOOD)? Turn your cell off, and when you find he's called you 10 times, start the convo when you return the call with "IS there something wrong? Are the kids okay?" Imply or come right out and say that there is no reason to call you ANY DAY 10 times without an emergency. Jesus Christ, you have a right to a life. Is he super controlling?

Good for you on the holiday planning. For your birthday, what about saying nothing but that you replaced his ticket with a "friend"? I mean, you naturally assumed he was unavailable, and you didn't want to waste the ticket, and let's be frank....without an absolute turnaround on his part, is it going to be FUN on YOUR birthday to have HIM there?

No, it won't be. You'll be self conscious and hurt and focussed on him/his thoughts/actions/words or lack thereof and reading into everything. Wow, sounds like a blast.

I think even he will understand that you need to give that ticket to someone else and get your mind off him for a night. BTW, your brain and heart need a break too. This WILL CONSUME you and I know this b/c I've been where you are. My sisters had to do an "intervention" with me telling me to stop repeating myself asking "Why why why?" and to stop obsessing. You see, of my 3 sisters, 2 have been divorced and both remarried. One handled her divorce (which was a tremendous blow to her, with 22 years of M and 3 kids) with gracious dignity, and the other sister (JS) was pathetic (no kids, 13 years of M and imho, a million signs that something wasn't right in their M). JS revolved around her h during their marriage and took on virtually No hobbies or interests or even a job, if it cut into her h time. She smothered him and brought nothing to the M except a mirror for him. She fell apart when he left her, and obsessed and cried like nothing I've seen anywhere. He "ran" from her as fast as he could as far as I could tell. Called her a few times the first few months so he wouldn't feel like a total cad. Also, he remarried as soon as it was legally permissible...Not saying your h is having an affair, but it sounds like he feels smothered. By the way you talk, I can see why. On the other hand, his constant calling is inappropriate for a dozen reasons.

Anyway, when my sisters (other than JS, of course) said I had started to sound like JS, I took stock of myself and got a grip. I stopped asking "why"? all the time. BTW, when I met a 10 year old girl with cancer at a summer camp, she told me this: "I used to "ask why me? Why, why, why? Then I said to myself, 'it just is" and decided to try and have fun while I can." That little girl did pass away, but she had a great summer and her words have obviously stuck with me. There is no "why" right now. Guess what? It's not even relevant at this point. Make your life about YOU. Your children, Your future, etc. Not why your crazy h is crazy, or mean, or dishonest or whatever the hell he is. You have to let go of the illusion that you have control over him by what you say or do or feel. If that were true, the only thing we'd know is that your past actions/words didn't work to get him back.

When my sisters confronted me about getting a grip, I realized I was NOT supporting my kids in THEIR pain. My c told me to reassure them that no matter what happened, I would be there for them and that their happiness was the most important thing in my life. (So, I wouldn't be going off to "find myself", etc.)
So, I shifted focus off my pain and got some self respect back. Did I ever lose it and show anger at H? Heck yes. But all things considering, I was a heck of a lot stronger and healthier (and eventually more forgiving) than I knew I was.

You've radiated pain and sorrow and need to him for some time now, don't you think? How about a real 180' INSIDE you, and in your behavior? What makes YOU happy? Can we start visiting those things? What does your therapist or counselor say? I'm assuming you have one for yourself in some form. If there were ever a time for one, now is it.

Good luck,
j-

[Evie]

i've just replied in length, pressed the wrong button and lost everything, thats twice today!!!

[Evie]

Try again.

Thank you for your reply, its exactly the slap I needed right now, I couldn't see how I was been!! Smothering you say? In what way do you read it as me smothering? I have become aware that I mother everyone, its a trait that my M has and her fussing annoys everyone, i am making a concious effort not too, so maybe h saw me as mothering, not sexy at all!!!

H has just called my mobile and land line again! I ignored them and i've now switched mobile off. It is time for boudaries and 180's. H will call for no reason at all and I don't understand why?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
He HAS said he wants out of the M, right? Well, then what IS with all the calls? He wants to either 1) have you stay connected enough for him to go back if and when he wants to, or 2) he's checking to see if he's losing you, AND OR 3) he feels guilty and this makes him feel as if he's still kind to you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

H has always been kind, hates confrontation (we both avoid it). Problems were never dealt with, we need to learn communication skills to deal with the issues.

Why would he worry about losing me if he wants out at this time?

I know him well enough to know he will be feeling guilty. But he has never contacted me this much, especially since may (bomb)except in the beginning of our R and he did all the pursuing then... but he wouldn't be pursuing me if he can't talk about the R or go out with me surely? I think he is insecure, of what I don't know, he was sure he wanted to leave and not work on the R anymore. He said we had grown to far apart (ILYBNILWY)

I was happy for the contact with H because I wanted to treat him as my friend and to build on this frienship, occasionally he has texted me and been open about a couple of things to do with the R and if there was to ever be a reconcilation at least we would have built a foundation as friends, so i'm confused now, h obviously likes the connection but for what reason I don't know? My fear would be that by not encouraging the friendship I lose the possibility of reconcilation in the future. As i'm writing this I can feel you hitting me with the 4 x 2's, right!!

So what I need to do is back off, give him space to think and let him decide?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You've radiated pain and sorrow and need to him for some time now, don't you think? How about a real 180' INSIDE you, and in your behavior? What makes YOU happy? Can we start visiting those things? What does your therapist or counselor say? I'm assuming you have one for yourself in some form. If there were ever a time for one, now is it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To be honest, i have spent so long bringing up kids, building the business, renovating homes, buying a property abroad for our 'pension' and working full time that I have lost myself, I don't know what I want or what I enjoy, in this respect i'm like your sister JS. After the bomb, i took up yoga, which I still do, I enjoy the space in my head it gives me. I have a lot of girlfriends that I enjoy going out to dinner with. I have a demanding job so I enjoy being quiet when I get home. With 4 kids in the house it's rarely quiet... I enjoy reading, watching dvd's but I agree i need new interests, just atm I don't know what, i just need to be for now. When D1 leaves in 17 days I will be busy decorating bedrooms for the other 3 kids to have their own rooms.

BTW a bit about C's. We initially went together for an assessment to see how we wanted to proceed? H wanted to end the R and I wanted to work on the R. They said they could only counsel one way or the other. We were put on the waiting list and after 3 months an appointment came up at which point H didn't want to go anymore and the C wouldn't see me on my own. We have a very different system over here to you guys. If i were to go again I would have to start over and then be put on the waiting list and I have no confidene that they would be goal orientated etc (we need Michele & her team over here!!).

Thank you for listening, I am TRUELY grateful for all advice.

XD