Still trying - Not very well

[limbo]

Hb...I hope that as you continue with the post sessions, that things will fall into place with your H and he will realize that love is a choice.
We have our last post session tomorrow! But have agreed to and signed up for the core, so we will give that a try and see how we like it.
I have a feeling H may not as I think there maybe more openess in the core, where we share more and I don't think H is in a place where he can do it....although I believe he would benefit from it. But i wount be something I will push, he will have to decide that for himself.

[Heartbroken]

I agree with you here - my H dialogues about the fluffy easy questions. Even when it's my turn and I pick the harder more R type issues he still only touches the surface not really answering the core of the question. I hinted to this but plan to talk to the presenter couple on how to handle this and if he's even ready for opening up....

My biggest fear is the foundation info has love and commitment - how do we continue when he feels NO love...I had a very hard time sleeping last night (was up from 1 - 3:30 AM!!!!) and this has not happened in a long time, so I know this is eating at me... I started fantasying about what kind of house I would get for myself and what items I would take and what I would want new (or off Craig's list LOL) but then when I crawled back in bed and H snuggled up to me I just teared up - I feel so good with him how will I ever let it go...and how do I prep for getting my kids half a week????? Darn it I just want him to wake up for REAL!!! Okay I need some of that propping up you promised!!!!

HB

[limbo]

Just take it slowly....no matter what he says he is still trying and that a good thing...He is obviously very confused...the sad thing is he wants bells and whistles love, but at this stage after all this time, the love is deeper, and he needs to see that! I think its a good idea to talk to the presenters, but the generally want to talk to you both.
But it might help him to hear from them directly!

[LoginName]

Hey HB, and Limbo,
I think I can relate. My W stood firm on the ILYBNILWY speech. She didn't "feel" it, and she didn't want to fake it. She would say I'm her best friend, I'm a great dad, she really likes me, and loves me in a way, but no feeling. She wouldn't hold hands, she wouldn't sit next to me, she would barely touch me at all, even in passing.

I was thinking of my life without her. I was planning like you are. The hardest part was the idea of being a part time parent, or at least only having the kids part time, especially since if I would have carried out my plan and gotten a divorce while she was with OM, I could have had the kids.

So here is my take on this stuff. I found strength from planning my life without my W. I found strength in detaching. It seemed hard, nearly impossible, to walk that line of detaching and still be open to her. I've been doing it by focusing on those questions I said earlier (what do I want, what's my choice...)I think it was or is easier for me because we are separated (she is living in AR while I'm in CO). Sleeping and cuddling with her would have been confusing for me, even though I desparately wanted to sleep with her.

Also, I think we need to have a lot of strength in ourselves. What hurts so much? Is it the rejection? For us in peicing, we feel that rejection everyday anew. Why does rejection hurt so much? Because it's someone telling us we aren't valued, worthy, of love perhaps? But, if we know we are worthy, and we love ourselves, this can only hurt us so much. It doesn't matter if our spouses don't love us. I love my W even if she doesn't love me. The way that love is expressed and felt will change, but I love her anyway. And I know I'm a good person, worthy, and I love myself. Each time she rejected me, rejects me, it hurts, and I cry, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm good, worthy, and strong (even strong enough to feel the pain and to cry). You are worthy too. I think you already know that, or you wouldn't have the strength to do what you are doing.

I think it may work to your advantage to be sharing a house and a bed. Since I can't, and don't want to, go through this again and try it without the separation, I don't know which is better. Go with what you have and what you feel is right. Separation, even for a short term, can be an option though. I think Retro is to your advantage too.

Love is a choice? Maybe, but I really think it is a mistake to tell our spouses that. What is it really saying when we tell them that love is a choice? We are pressuring them. We are saying love is a choice, the right choice is to love me, stop being a stubburn idiot and make the right choice already. I'm right, you're wrong. I've made the choice to love you, so love me already. They bristle at that, they hate being pushed, told what to feel and think. We are also telling them that they are defective "what's wrong with you that you can't make this choice and make it now?". They fear they are defective, that something is seriously wrong with them. Why can't they choose to love us?

I think we need to back off. Let them wait for the "feeling" to come back. We may know it's a choice, and they are really working on making that choice right now. It takes time. They need to come to it on their own. And, if they believe it's a feeling, not a choice, and they feel it toward us, should we complain?

I bet they FEEL love toward the OP. I bet it doesn't seem to be a hard Choice that they have to Make themselves feel love for the OP. So who should they choose? The one that is making them do something that is hard and painful or the one that is asking them to do what feels natural and fun?

And despite this, they stay with us and keep working on our R in their own way. Maybe they know deep down what is right. Maybe they know they love us, and maybe they know love is a choice. And I think the real issue is, they need to get to where they can like and love themselves. Just like us with GALing. They can't love us until they feel strong enough in themselves to risk it. The OP is another attempt to avoid looking at themselves. The OP is an outside source of validation. Again, the OP isn't important, it's really all about the spouse and their journey to get to know and like themselves. They may fear that if they choose to love us, they could lose themselves and need us for validation. They need to validate themselves. It takes time.

Again, I found strength by knowing I could walk away if I needed to. Even if they are trying hard, struggling, if I reached my limit, I could go, and I'd still love my W, and I could move on too. Funny how knowing I could leave made it easier to stay.

Retro (I won't try to spell the whole name) sounds really good and helpful. I think that's a great tool, plus, positive for you both. And for Limbo, and others.

Have a cry when you need it. Try to make it an honest cry. Don't cry to impress, to move or change the spouse, for any reason than because you feel it and need to do it. Nothing wrong with crying.

I think I've said too much. I should have stayed on topic: don't push or force them to Choose, detaching can be good, they are struggling, give them some space. I've been re-reading this, and I think I started to ramble. Writing here is helping me process and analyse my feelings too, helping me understand what I'm going through and went through. I hope it's helpful for you too.

I think we are all on the right path, and we will succeed - although success might not be what we think it is now. Both of you, HB and limbo, are doing great. We can feed off of each others strength. After this, nothing can break us. "Mad props" to you both (do kids still say mad props?).

[limbo]

LN

All I can say is wow and please don't stop posting to me!!!

With the chosing to love, its actually something that is stressed at the retro...I know for me its not something I push on him, but he does hear it weekly from retro, and to be honest when they talk about it, it does make sense.
Its sort of the philosphy they teach, that everything we do is a choice, how we react to our feelings, how we choose to move on.
Everything is a choice.

[LoginName]

I like that idea,that everything is a choice. I went to a IC once. She told me that too. She said that taking care of your kids may not feel like a choice, but even that is. Many people don't take care of their kids, so I guess it is a choice, even if it doesn't feel like one to me.

[Sara]

LogInName,

The retrouvaille experience is different than DB. It is not pressure, but it is a class if repairing your marriage in 7 weeks. DB takes an infinite time frame, wait for them to come around. So the two can't really be mixed.

Retrouvaille will continue to teach the philosopy. He can sit there and reject it, but probably he will be giving it some thought. Because by now he sees that they have been right about some things. Probably many things. So it has to make him question whether they might not be right about this too. It's not done in a pressured way though. The presenters are always talking about themselves. It would be the little voice inside him who is saying, "You see, they're right." And you know what, they are right. There's nothing wrong with him sitting in a room and being exposed to the thought. The mind is the biggest aphrodisiac. You get someone into your mind, and you can't stop thinking about them. And before you know it you are proclaiming love. It has nothing to do with the other person. It is all in the lover's mind. It is the lover's choice to put that person in his mind and think about her.

[Heartbroken]

LN,

Again thanks so much!!! I cut and pasted your WHOLE post into a word doc - to print and to re-read when I am having these self doubts. I appreciate all your input (are you related to Theo???) so please please keep it coming. I appreciate any and all 2X4's and would not have gotten as far as I have come if it were not for this site and the wonderful support from people like yourself!!! Thanks again!

HB

[peaceful_spirit]

Here's my take on "love is a choice"...

It's a choice to act loving towards our spouse. It's a choice to work on meeting each other's needs. It's our choice to connect on a physical level. And it's our choice to be open to receiving those things in return.

So, in the case of our spouses who don't feel those "in love" feelings, they may not realize that it is a choice to take steps towards getting those feelings back again... towards making a connection. They feel those things in the A, because the OP is on their best behavior.

So, yes, it's a choice to work at it.

[LoginName]

Interesting. The little I know of retrouvaille is from this board and it sounds effective and positive.