our un-relationship

[azhira]

Well, the only reason I put all that in, was that he explicitly asked me why I think we have some sort of R.

Oh, yeah, I know why he's mad about the snooping. He keeps falling back on the old excuse of "You invaded my privacy." Honestly, I don't really care about that line anymore. Bull. (And yes, I know it's common.) Don't sleep with me, and then play cutesy cutesy with someone else. Not. Acceptable.

We have a little boy. He just turned one.

I think, on some level, I've been ignoring the nonsense because I also wanted unlimited access to my kid. I wanted to have that breastfeeding relationship. Well, he's hit the one year mark, and is on table foods now. If we can make it another year nursing...great. If we don't, I won't feel that badly about it anymore. He's already cut down considerably in frequency.

So, now my concern is, I don't want DS to think of this kind of interaction as okay. Because it's not.

I think xh will realize, eventually, that this game also means he will have limited access to his kid. I think that's where it's really going to hurt him.

And yes, I know, the dating thing is motivated by my vindictive feelings. That's why I haven't really done it, yet. I don't want to give into that side.

On the other hand...from the blank looks he gives me, he has absolutely no idea what it's like to be on this side. Maybe it would do him some good.

[Dom R]

Well, to him you are punishing him because he's missing that closeness/connection with you when you pulled back.

Whats better vocabulary to use, from "punishing someone for their behaviour", to "protecting yourself because they are hurting you"?

Supposedly, "boundaries" are meant for this kind of discussion. but sometimes, even a word like "boundary" can be taken as too strongly. it's tricky, depending on how sensitive the person is that you are talking to.

[Dom R]

I think xh will realize, eventually, that this game also means he will have limited access to his kid. I think that's where it's really going to hurt him.

that's what it's all down to, as far as family, isnt it?
One very valid reason people stay together, is "for the children". both for the benefit of the children.. but also, so that the PARENT can see their child every day.

If they choose to "break up the family".. that means they interrupt their access to their children too. by their own choice.

Making selfish choices, usually has consequences directly related to those choices. Otherwise known as, "you cant have your cake and eat it too"
(unless your spouse is too forgiving )

And yes, I know, the dating thing is motivated by my vindictive feelings. That's why I haven't really done it, yet. I don't want to give into that side.

On the other hand...from the blank looks he gives me, he has absolutely no idea what it's like to be on this side. Maybe it would do him some good.

Just Say No, Azhira. dont play that game. I dont think you even need to go there.

I think it will be a strong enough message, if [if he continues to be hurtful to you by dating other women] you just stop letting him come be with you and your child, when it is your turn to have him.

[azhira]

I am focusing entirely too much on xh.

I have printed out what I feel is the final version of the letter, and will be giving it to him later today. At this point, I do not particularly care what his reaction is. It is as gentle as I can write it, while still expressing these ideas.

Here are my goals for today and tomorrow:

• cardio after work today
  
• weights during lunch tomorrow
  
• read while at the gym today
  
• work on short story for writer's group on Saturday
  
• take short tests for SCJP 5-1.

[Dom R]

no update from last night?
Hmm. that doesnt seem good

[azhira]

Oh. lol. Yeah, you're the second person to check on me.

No, I'm fine. Just digesting. I have a lot to think through...once I get it organized, it's going to be a long post.

It was fine. Actually, we talked some before I handed him the letter. We haven't discussed the actual letter yet, but that's okay...we pretty much talked it out before he read it. xh was at my place late last night (spent the night, no PT, no sex), and we were chatty this morning. Today is a very busy day for him.

I feel...relieved. Peaceful. I'm glad I got it out of my system. It's been a few months since I blew my top, and it feels good to get it out.

It was good, though. No resolution. But I have a lot to chew through.

[azhira]

So, apparently, I built up a cliffhanger and left you guys wondering...like a bad soap opera...haha! I'm glad there is at least some entertainment value here.

I'm kidding. Obviously, I am in a much better mood.

So...synopsis...

xh had been pushing to know what was wrong the last several days. I agree, it was unfair of me to withdraw without explanation. (Side note: it does give me some insight into how he felt, the different times that he has pulled back.) So, he had asked me to take the kiddo to his place last night.

When I got there after work, I was still in heavy avoidance mode. After nursing the kid, I just wanted to bolt and go home. xh kept insisting we needed to talk. (Interestingly, years before, I used to be the one to push and push for resolution. Maybe I have flipped too far the other direction...?)

He finally convinced me to talk. I basically told him what was in the letter, although not as well. Mentioning JD is a hot point for him; I could tell he was getting worked up. The one huge positive over the last year: we don't always spin out of control on these convos. While I was talking, I would point out that he asked my feelings, so I am telling them to him, when he would interrupt with explanations. We also try to take turns. The key is also to not belittle the other person's feelings...or try to change them...he is entitled to them, as am I.

So, what he basically told me (since you all know my side):

- He still doesn't get why I think he and I were playing M, or why I think he and JD are in an R. When I told him maybe he was lying to himself, he agreed that he may be in denial. (No sarcasm or anything here. I think I gave him something to think about.) He made one excellent point...he said if he was in denial, then that was for him to figure out.

- He (genuinely) apologized for hurting me or giving me mixed signals.

- He pointed out (correctly) that he had been saying we both needed to be more careful with our boundaries lately.

- The baby is absolutely his priority, and he still wants to spend as much time with him as possible. He views me withholding my key as my trying to 'control' his access to the kid. When I told him that he had no right to demand it, and that I would never hold his kid from him, he pointed out that sometimes you never know what people will do until they do it. (True. I think this is just his big fat fear coming out.)

- He feels he was totally up front with me. He does discuss with me his FF's MN and MY--neither of which he wants to date, and has been trying to sort how to maintain appropriate boundaries with them. I have met them, and I do not feel he is 'hiding' either side in this case. (My problem has been solely around JD, not anyone else.) He does, indeed, specifically ask my advice on how to do this.

- He feels he is still too cloudy to make any decisions on any sort of R. He said he is still open to us becoming involved again, but he's still not done with his crisis. (I am okay with this. Really. I want him to be happy, ultimately. I just also don't want to feel used.)

- When I told him it basically boiled to that I was afraid he was sleeping with both of us, or that I find it patently gross to tell one woman "ILY, I want to be with you" while fooling around with another...he commented (vehemently) "I won't make that mistake again." I believe he was alluding to xow. I also still stand by my "I'm not stupid" approach...


It was not a bad talk. Actually, it was briefer than my description sounds. I think he read my letter, but I don't know. We haven't discussed it.

I am immensely glad I did this. I have no anxiety about telling him my stance. We are chatting very nicely today, so I think we've both dropped it.

So...things I need to consider...

At some point, I want to ask "What in the world do you think an M or an R is if it's not what you're doing with either JD or myself???" I mentioned it this morning, but he didn't have time to talk, and that's fine. I know xh has been working through that he had incredibly unrealistic expectations in the past, and he has admitted he just "doesn't know" when an R is supposed to be done. He thinks (thought?) little bumps meant the end. (His description, not mine.) He was going to group counseling for that.

I also think this whole debacle partially came up because I tried pushing a little. (Experiment and monitor...) It also waaaay raised my expectations. Clearly, not a good idea. haha. Anyway, while I was set off by his insensitive comment over the weekend, I have noticed I am more likely to snoop when I get closer to him--and then feel scared about it. This whole JD thing is not new information. I think his "maybe I have been with other people" comment just infuriated me over the weekend. (We did discuss that one rationally, at the time.)

While I did use the 24 hour measure (when did it get doubled to 48??), I realize that I was allowing my anger to run away with me to a degree. I want to work on making sure I don't go overboard on the withdrawing just because I'm PO'd. Doing so doesn't jive with my whole unconditional friendship goals.

So...I still want to hold off on the sex thing. Ick ick ick. But I think I'm okay with the being friends and hanging out. I was able to stay detached when we were just acting like really good friends. It doesn't change my feelings, obviously, but I wasn't so worried about what he was up to.

Other thoughts...xh and I communicate so much better than we used to. I am incredibly impressed with how well he manages these arguments now. We still have the occasional nasty one, but for the most part, even when we're both worked up, we can get through it.

Another thought. I have been wondering what I could do different, on a larger scale, than I had in the past. After digging through my head, I recall starting to feel suspicious about xow before the big blow up. (This was, oh, back in 2003.) I recall wanting to tell him he couldn't hang out with her anymore, but deciding not to because I figured it would backfire. (She was his 'best friend', he'd 'never felt closer to anyone', she was 'just like him', blah blah blah.) It was before I found DB. Anyway, I said absolutely nothing at the time.

So...I told xh how I see his 'friendship' with JD. Now, no need to brow beat him with it. Mostly, I just want him to understand what he's doing. He's a big boy and can make decisions beyond that. I get the genuine impression that it hasn't quite clicked in his head yet. I trust my gut on reading him.

Pfhew...I feel drained after all that...

[Dom R]

ugh.
I think you should have just given him the letter up front.



here's the thing.
I hear that some men never fully "feel ready" for commitment.
Whether that be full-on marriage, or "committing" to dating exclusively.

Sometimes, you just have to say, "I understand you feel unsure about things.
I need this for me."

or words to that effect. talk to your "girlfriends"(?) aobut how to convince a man to commit, maybe?


He pointed out (correctly) that he had been saying we both needed to be more careful with our boundaries lately.

Ok, so maybe your boundary is, "no more nookie for someone who isnt exclusively dating me"?


He feels he is still too cloudy to make any decisions on any sort of R. He said he is still open to us becoming involved again, but he's still not done with his crisis.

Err, what?
It's been a year.
You have a great relationship.
He's just scared of (re)commitment, i think.


Ok, lets take a step back. to possibly take a step forward.

How about you find out more about what it means to HIM, for the two of you to "get involved again" ?

And what the heck this supposed "crisis" of his is about?
it almost sounds like, "well, i know there's this thing called a 'mid life crisis', where men run around and basically go hog-wild and have fun. Fun sounds good. So I'm going to say i'm still in 'mid life crisis'"

ie: a manufactured MLC, rather than any real "crisis" inside him.

MLC, is primarily when someone doesnt know who they are or what they want any more.

he sounds pretty durn stable to me. He knows what he wants. he knows what makes him happy.
Being with you, and your child, makes him happy. he wants to keep hold of that.
[in contrast to MLC, where the spouse traditionally is no longer sure whether children/spouse makes them happy]

He's just being a toddler, and saying "i want everything, with no limits on what I can have!" rather than being an adult, recognizing, "if I want this over here, then that means I need to give up that over there. I am mature enough to pick the 'best choice', and so not regret giving up 'that'"

[azhira]

Ok, so maybe your boundary is, "no more nookie for someone who isnt exclusively dating me"?

Yup. Thought I said that.

He feels he is still too cloudy to make any decisions on any sort of R. He said he is still open to us becoming involved again, but he's still not done with his crisis.

Err, what?
It's been a year.
You have a great relationship.
He's just scared of (re)commitment, i think.

Uh...there's a lot of the more personal stuff I have left out. His stability is a new thing. He never could manage to stay in a job or career for more than a few months. He's never managed to actually do more than a few weeks of school before. He's never managed to live on his own without falling apart financially. These are huge, and have really only fallen into line the last few months. He is learning how to set appropriate boundaries with his family. (Should be fun...MIL is moving here next week!)

And what the heck this supposed "crisis" of his is about?

Childhood abuse, and completely reshaping how he sees the world. He's been facing his demons, and is a much better person for it. And, honestly, he's been taking me along for the trip in his head. Kind of weird.

MLC, is primarily when someone doesnt know who they are or what they want any more. in contrast to MLC, where the spouse traditionally is no longer sure whether children/spouse makes them happy

Yup, sounds like a lot of what he said a year ago.

He has also admitted that, a lot of it was, he just needed to grow up.

Mostly, this has been my spin on it lately...that it seems similar...

How about you find out more about what it means to HIM, for the two of you to "get involved again" ?

Yup, on the list. I asked him this morning, but he didn't have time. I probably shouldn't have asked him when he was literally walking out the door...

I feel pretty good. Probably because he took the time to listen to me.

Of course, then, the follow up question is...how much time do I give it? I'm okay...for now. Am I willing to take it along his time line or not?

Oh. Interesting side note. xh has picked up a new job. New job, in the past, usually meant he meets new people to hang out with...and could be positively spun toward us getting closer. Just looking at the pattern this took, the last time we were separated. The cycle seems to be the same, only more drawn out and more productive for both of us.

Going to live my own life now...and get my butt to the gym.

I think I may suggest to him later...that he's only as broken as he sees himself. That worked for me a few years back.

[DaveJ]

He has also admitted that, a lot of it was, he just needed to grow up.

Action speaks louder than words. Recognizing the issue is the first step but he has to take action and just do it. It doesn't do you or him any good if he just says he needs to grow up every time you raise the issue.

At some point in life he has to come out of hiding behind his "crisis" shield and face the world. I'm not saying he doesn't have issues to deal with. Just hopefully it doesn't become a habit of him using that as an excuse for everything that he doesn't want to face.