WAW hasn't walked yet, but emotionally dead

[mako]

Hi, first post, looking for any advice or comments.

W and I are in our late 20's, married 4 years, together 6, no kids. Everything seemed fine, but at some point we lost the connection (W thinks we never had it). We've always gotten along perfectly well, but just lost something. I was never particularly affectionate, and communication wasn't that great, taking each other for granted. I love her greatly, but I foolishly didn't treat her that way.

She told me a few months ago that she was having major problems with OR, and that she had been having these problems for a few years. My lack of affection toward her (I've never been a terribly affectionate person) and our lack of communication gave her serious doubts about the relationship. Anyway, I tried to do better, but it didn't work. She just shut me out and it was just cold between us. Either my efforts were not enough, or she had already made up her mind.

Now, she wants to leave me. Says she has emotionally died inside, something is missing and always has been, and we are just too fundamentally different to be happy together. We talked for several hours, and it was a lot better than it had been. She cried a lot, I cried a lot, and I've cried a lot today (these are actually huge 180's for me, see below). But I pretty much agreed with all her assessments, she truly does have to go for her well being. Still, I am devastated.

Anyway, I finally have come to the conclusion that I need some major changes in my life. I have always pretty much shut myself off emotionally; I don't share much, don't ask much, people rarely know what I'm feeling. It's no wonder my wife died inside, of course she would after a few years of that! And of course I couldn't fix anything, I was attacking the symptoms not the underlying problem. I want to be more open and communicative, not only with my SO but with all the close people in my life. It just leads to much richer relationships. I can see now that me and W were basically coasting along, and it could have gone that way for a long time. So, I don't blame her for taking drastic measures.

The reason behind me wanting to change is for me--make my life better, stop relying on someone else to make me happy, do it myself. It's not just to get my W back; I'm pretty sure she's already too far gone. Still, I wonder if I do change like this, if W would want to come back (and if I'd still want her, never know). Finally I see what she needs and was missing, and I think if I changed in the ways that I want to that we could be very good together. I'm starting therapy on Monday, hoping to get this process of change going, W isn't coming, as she sees no point.

Anyway, W isn't leaving immediately, but she's moved out of our room. She's looking for work out of state, and hopes to move out in around a month. This has been planned, we were both going to go (my job can be anywhere). She thinks I should still move (not with her of course), cause I have a bunch of friends there and few here. She says she cares about me immensely, thinks that we can be good friends and this all makes her sad and depressed. She doesn't want the friendship to end, just the marriage.

Thoughts? I'm feeling pretty hopeless right now...

Did you buy DR or DB yet? I'd start there. You can't control what she does - Even with the best of intentions and efforts, it's more than likely that she will continue in the direction she is heading.

While you're waiting to buy the book, here is what you do:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes

[mako]

Thanks for the advice. I've gotten through most of DB and am waiting on DR.

I know that I can't control her, I can only control myself, so I just gotta make myself the best that I can be. I really took to heart the notion that a relationship can be changed by just one person changing.

And yeah, pleading and begging is the worst. I did that at first (who doesn't?) and she totally closed off. Once I was more accepting of her views did she start to open up again.

I have already started a few 180's:

-Exercising--I used to when we dated, but hadn't in years, just never made time. Plus it's an outlet for stress, and being healthier doesn't hurt.

-Doing things on my own--she used to plan everything, past few days I've been going out myself just to do things alone, like go to museums, the bookstore, whatever, just to get out.

-Making conversation--just chit chat, I'm just talking to her. Letting her know that I'm around and if she needs to talk to me she can. This is another big 180, and was a point of hers in the bomb drop talk - she feels that whenever we talk it's just her doing all the talking. So I just talk to her some more, so long as she is sounding responsive.

-Going to therapy--I'm not the type of person who seeks help. She's even commented to me that she's proud I took this step, that it may do some good for me.

-Consoling--She broke down crying today, so I rubbed her back for a bit. She didn't feel super receptive, but wasn't icy either. I know this normally goes against the book, but it is a total 180 for me also so i just went with it. Since emotional connection is our biggest lack, anything that shows I'm changing would help I'd think (unless it appears that she is resenting it, then I back off). She then asked if it was weird or hard that she slept on the couch, I said it was hard but I understood if she needed to do that for the sake of having space. She said she would try the couch for a while then see.

As for the rest of the points, thanks. Main thing: give her what space she needs, because pressuring only pushes her away faster. I'm here and happy to discuss anything--if SHE wants to--but in the meantime I will just work on making myself happy. If I'm happy she might come back, but if she doesn't at least I'm happy.

It is just hard because it feels like she is questioning her decision, at least the littlest bit, so it makes me want to rush in and pull her back to my side, to hug her and kiss her and tell her I'll change. I know, I CAN'T do any of that, and I will stay strong. But it certainly isn't easy for her, and that's a plus...a lot better than her leaving and not looking back.

It is just hard because it feels like she is questioning her decision, at least the littlest bit, so it makes me want to rush in and pull her back to my side, to hug her and kiss her and tell her I'll change. I know, I CAN'T do any of that, and I will stay strong. But it certainly isn't easy for her, and that's a plus...a lot better than her leaving and not looking back.

Yeah, my W has had times when she has questioned what she is doing, and the first time I jumped in and tried to haul her back into the relationship... Didn't work too well.

I think the important thing when that happens is to give her the space to let the thoughts process... As soon as you pursue, she'll think you've not changed and go back to where she was.

[mako]

More of the same today. I'm just trying to live my life, but at the same time be nice and kind to W. She knows that I'm here, but she also has her own space. I do things like saying good morning and good night, asking what she is up to...in the past I often avoided the small talk that I felt was just mundane, but now see that it is necessary to feeling a connection. These are big 180's and I will keep them up, I don't think it is seen as pursuing, just as being nice. Certainly, it is something I feel she would need if she were to come back to me, so I will show her that I am capable, so long as I don't feel that she is resenting it. In any event, it just feels good to be nice!

Today she was off to the dentist. I asked what she planned on doing the rest of the day, she said "just wandering around." I said "that may be good for you, but don't feel like you have to stay away on my account," she said "I know." She just needs some space to think I guess. As she left I said hope you feel better, and she started to get a little teary, said this isn't something where you can just feel better right away. Then she left...

So still, I feel that she might be doubting herself the slightest bit. At the very least it seems really hard on her. For two months we had little contact--she had severely distanced herself in September, in response to which I just withdrew in return, then in October she was gone most of the month on work trips and a visit to her grandparents overseas. Our relationship was ice cold. That probably made it easy to just let me go, as it let her just focus on all the negatives with no positives. Now she is home, and with all this out that tension has gone down quite a bit, and maybe she is seeing it's not as easy as she thought. I don't know, just looking for something positive in all this.

Tonight I will probably go out on my own, start to GAL a little bit. I need that for me, just to get out of the house...

[sad2be]

I don't post much anymore, but was checking the site today and your subject line caught my eye. I really admire your post and how very much you seem to TRULY understand and respect your W needs. Thoughts and feelings like yours is not something I see all that often on the message board and it's a nice change from anger and resentment that most LBS feel. The sitch is difficult enough and it sounds like you are able to see it from both sides. If only others could be as mature and honest as you, even when the truth hurts you so deeply. One more thing, I'm sure your wife had the connection in the beginning, after all you got married. Keeping taking care of yourself!

[Just_Me]

I agree with the above. You are doing well. Follow the path that you are on and be patient about it. Give her the time and space to work through this stuff while you continue to be understanding and supportive.

[mako]

Thanks so much for the support sad2be and Just_me. At least gives me some confidence that through this tough time I'm trying to do the right thing.

I am really working on understanding W's needs, her fears about staying with me, and what she's been going through for a long time. So your comments really hit home that maybe it looks like I'm doing an ok job. It really saddens me that she has felt this way for so long...I do know if somehow we ever do get back together I will do all I can to never let it happen again. Too bad it took something like this to wake me up. All this time I feel like she never felt that I understood, so that's what I'm trying to do now, just be understanding, just try to be a friend to her.

We had a big talk last night. She decided she is going to move out with her brother who lives nearby. Just too hard for her staying in our home, and she feels it's too hard on me too having her there. She's probably right, but I liked having her there, just cause I like having her around, plus it's easier for her to see my progress. This set off a long talk about things again...it wasn't that productive really, a lot of going around in circles, but I felt it was good to get everything out, and she said the same. We weren't mean or angry, it was just very emotional. At the end I ended up crying a lot as she tried to comfort me, I just couldn't stop, I guess it all just hit me again. I know this isn't quite according to the book, but I just couldn't help it.

I do note that maybe crying and being emotional isn't the worst thing in my sitch, since one of her big beefs is my lack of emotion and lack of sharing my feelings. This is actually one of the largest 180s I could do. W is certainly seeing my feelings now, and that I can be emotional about things. She even said she's never seen me cry like the past couple days (I never do) and it just made her stomach churn.

Anyway, after this I drove to my parents' house, I had planned to come here to visit anyway for a couple days and after that talk it was just hard to stay home. W e-mailed me saying she was sorry about some of the hurtful things she said the past couple days, how sad it was when she went into our bedroom, how horrible this all makes her feel, and how horrible she knows I must feel and she wishes she could take away my pain. (there is one thing that could take away my pain--come back and give it another try but i know that won't happen anytime soon if ever). She also said I should give her a call whenever I feel up to it.

So, she is leaving the house soon I guess (her brother is int he process of moving too and they need to find a place). But our relationship is actually sort of better than it's been in a good while. Maybe too late, but we are actually talking a lot and connecting more, I feel. I've let her know that she never needs to shut me out again, that if she wants to talk about anything I am here and will be kind and try to understand. She seemed responsive to this. So, I just gotta have patience and let her try to work on herself to figure things out. It is clear to me that she cares about me a lot, but whether that will ultimately come back to the surface and drown out her negativity I can't say. In the meantime, I will try to do good for me and just try to be as happy as I can, but still be open to her if she wants to talk. But as everyone here knows, man is it hard...

[mako]

Well, I gave W a call because she asked me to check in...

Apparently she was overwhelmed by looking for housing, so may not move out asap, maybe the 1st of the month instead since that's when many vacancies open. Earlier it seemed that she wanted to move immediately, saying that she didn't want me to feel anxious or hurt by seeing her every day. She also apparently feels pain living there like this. I told her not to worry about me cause I'll be fine; I don't want you to settle for a bad place by rushing out and moving right away, take your time, unless YOU feel like you need to go immediately, then I'd respect that. She said she really appreciated that and would keep it in mind while looking.

We also talked about our day a bit, so it wasn't all business, though it was a brief conversation. At the end she kind of was sobbing on the phone a little. I was cool and calm the whole time, but tried to console her with "I know it's hard right now" and "Hope you feel better."

I forgot to mention, the other day she brought up the word "divorce" for the first time (previously all she ever said was she's leaving). We were talking about what we would do with our place. She said it was fine with her if I stayed a while, she's not going to go out and get a divorce right away, she needs some time first to get her head straightened out.

I think that's a positive, who knows what "getting her head straightened out" entails, maybe she'll discover she messed this all up. Or maybe she'll figure it out and call a lawyer next week, who knows. I do think that she needs to go to counseling of some kind, she is receptive to the idea, though she refuses to go to the one I'm going to and wants to find her own. She says if we go to the same one she doesn't think she will be open and honest enough. I disagree but I validated it.

I still think she has at least a small doubt about what she's done, she is feeling too much pain and crying to be as emotionally dead as she says she is...she goes on about how she cares so much about me and wishes she could take away my pain, and she is going through major pain as well, yet this is 100% the right decision? I really think she's just really confused right now, she made this major decision after being hurt for a long time and it has just wrecked her emotionally. I think if she were 100% certain she'd feel a lot differently, and I can't believe all her anxiety is because she's worried about me. None of this is to say she'll ever come back, just think she's not as far gone as she's sure she is at the moment. But I'm overanalyzing at this point, can't control her feelings, so just need to give her the space she needs and let her deal with her feelings.

I just can't get my hopes up and can't push in any way, being nice and GAL has to be my priority. She did say she'll be gone a lot of this month visiting family, hopefully during this time away she'll remember how I've been caring and pleasant this past week, rather than the detached person I was before.

[mako]

Came home yesterday from parents' house. W was not there. My brother in law was there, W had borrowed his car and went out. That is fine, he is a good person and we get along.

I decided to go to a movie to get out of the house. This is GAL and a big 180, I've gone to exactly one movie alone since I've been married. Told b-i-l I was going out and went. Before I left I noticed W's wedding ring on the dresser, so she stopped wearing it. That made me sad.

As I was leaving the movie, W called me all worried, wondering where I was. Apparently b-i-l thought I was just getting food, so they were all surprised I was gone several hours. I thought "What are you so worried about me for?" but didn't say anything like that.

Came home and was reading in my room, W came in after walking the dog. We talked about how terrible looking for an apartment is, and her recent job search. She mentioned again something about needing to straighten her head out, I asked her when she was going to start therapy and she said she needed to deal with moving and getting a job first, she's just in survival mode right now. I feel like her head is the most important thing to work on, but didn't mention that as it would have been unproductive. She wants to see where she'll live before getting a therapist anyway, as she won't have a car.

She also mentioned as always how sad this all is. I kind of snapped and said "if it's so sad why are you doing this?" I know, bad move, but I immediately apologized, saying I know we've discussed this plenty already and she didn't have to say anything to that...she didn't...a little more chit chat, then she left.

Anyway, today she is looking for housing and just generally staying away, said she'd spend a lot of time in a coffee shop with free internet, looking and applying for jobs. She made dinner already, and left it so I could warm it up later. This is odd, as for the past few months she's hardly made dinner at all.

She said she'd be home around 8 probably (she just left, it's 9am...long day). She said good luck, it'll be good for you (talking of my 1st therapy session today). I thanked her and said good bye, and that's where we are.

She is so nice to me it almost drives me mad sometimes. It'd be a lot easier to detach if she was vile and mean. I was detaching nicely over the weekend at my parents' house but the feelings came back when I came back here. Maybe I can look forward to some detachment when she actually moves out and I don't see her all the time. Anyway, I admit nice is better than mean, so I'll take it...I try my best just to be nice back.