Hardly faking it anymore: Puddle's third thread

[Heimlich]

Um, yeah, what ST said, this guy is interested in you (don't forget about me and CVA, sniff, sniff). You sound great, but just be careful. I know you're somewhat disgusted with your H right now, but don't do something you'll regret (whatever that might be for you. I danced a lot, if I can recall, with some chick in a devil costume. I ain't judging.)

Before he left he told me 7-year-old had done some crazy stuff: thrown this "fake snow" plastic stuff all over the front yard, lit some papers on fire on the stove and carried them to the sink, and who knows what else.

You know this, but watch your son closely. He may be trying to get attention from BOTH of you. While your H is instigating all of these changes, your son might not see it that way. Give him some TLC. FWIW, my oldest lit a box of matches on the kitchen floor when she was 4ish. It could also just be boredom rather than a cry for help. Hard line to walk between being sensitive to any pain the kids might be feeling versus normal, stupid kid stuff.

I like your dream interpretion. Next time, YOU'RE driving, baby! You control this crazy ride, not anyone else.

Good for you on going to the old hangout. Also good to see that you're interested in living rather than commenting on life.

Regarding apologizing to H. Why? It's quite likely he forgot. He should apologize to you, or at least it's equally likely that he forgot to tell you as you forgetting. You handled it nicely, but, in my mind, were under no obligation to do so.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey ST, Heim, and everyone!

ST, I get what you're saying about being careful. Right now I'm asking myself what I really want, re this guy, re the M, re any future R, etc. I'm trying to get a handle on the vulnerability question. I guess I'd say the big difference between the sitch you described and me is I'm not feeling very married these days. I know you weren't at the time, either, but I feel like we're in the end game here.

And thanks for pointing out the possibility of the kids seeing me getting picked up/dropped off---it hadn't even occurred to me. (Duh. Hello?) And as it turned out, since H and 7-year-old were waiting out front for me, that would've been awkward. I was only thinking about dealing with questions from H.

Um, yeah, what ST said, this guy is interested in you.

I'm telling you: still unconvinced, except maybe in the general guy sense of being interested in having sex with someone, but I'm not getting a whole lot of that vibe, either. Hey, maybe that's his special guy superpower: attracting women by seeming uninterested. Seems like I've read about that somewhere.

(don't forget about me and CVA, sniff, sniff)

Are you kidding me? Never.

You sound great, but just be careful. I know you're somewhat disgusted with your H right now, but don't do something you'll regret (whatever that might be for you.

I'm struggling with something here. When I look at H right now I feel nothing positive, nada, no wanting, no hoping, and also no regret, no guilt, not even sadness. I'm trying to figure this out: This doesn't feel like loving detachment, but maybe indifference with a hint of disdain. What does that mean? Is this progress? Just a stage? Did I skip something?

This doesn't feel like DBing to me. I don't feel like I'm hoping for anything with H, other than he'll move out ASAP and I can be free of him. Last night I thought, wow, this may be one of the last nights we ever live together, but it was only the vaguest whisper of a sigh, nothing more. I even thought yesterday that I'd like to get the talk over so I can take this ring off (then thought, you know, I really like the ring, maybe I should just keep wearing it? I think I'm loony).

I guess what I'm going to do is just watch things develop, see what feelings come up when H actually moves out, then is gone, etc. If I were to continue feeling this way (this lack of feeling), maybe I am just one quick getter-over. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

And Heim, re doing something I might regret, right now the question for me of whether or not anything happens with this guy feels like it is 100% all about me: whether I like him enough, whether we're just too different to even consider something (this guy's idea of travel is hopping freight trains, and last night he told me about digging a snow cave ... I'm more a European coffeehouse/margarita on the beach kinda girl myself...), whether or not it would hinder something in my own personal growth.

What I mean is, I'm not even thinking about H in any of this, other than being sure I'm on solid legal ground. I think it'd be the nail in the coffin for any hope of reconciliation, and right now, I don't care.

Maybe that's exactly why I shouldn't do anything? Maybe I *do* have an inner pusher that's just wanting this to be done? Maybe the idea that H might change his mind is too overwhelming so I want to even avoid the possibility? I know feelings change. Heck, I'm muddled.

I danced a lot, if I can recall, with some chick in a devil costume. I ain't judging.)

I'd've paid good money to have seen that. Are you sure it was just dancing? maybe devil dancing?

He may be trying to get attention from BOTH of you.

Oh, this is a good point, thanks. I've just realized that while I'm chomping at the bit for H to leave, I'm going to have to free up my schedule pretty well for a while to be there for the kids, even on "my nights." I can imagine getting a lot of those late-night "come home NOW!" phone calls from him pretty soon.

Next time, YOU'RE driving, baby! You control this crazy ride, not anyone else.

An excellent reminder, thanks, though I'm not really feeling like a driver with a clear view right now (see above).

at least it's equally likely that he forgot to tell you as you forgetting.

I don't doubt he told me. I've been known to need to hear things a couple of times before I really hear them.

You handled it nicely, but, in my mind, were under no obligation to do so.

Thanks, Heim. It bothered me a bit that I had that same old familiar reaction---"Oh no, H is mad at me because I did something wrong"---but pleased that it was a very mild version. I think that reaction says more about me than it does about me and H.

If anyone can make any sense of this, please give it a shot. Can it be possible that I just don't care anymore? I'd never have imagined that 12 weeks ago.

Thanks, everyone. Take care.

[Heimlich]

This doesn't feel like loving detachment, but maybe indifference with a hint of disdain. What does that mean? Is this progress? Just a stage? Did I skip something?

I believe you've said in the past that neither of you were totally happy in this M. Maybe the way that he's been acting is allowing you to really evaluate your R, and him, for the first time without blinders on. Just a guess. Plus, he's not been a very appealling person, as described by you. Could be a protective mechanism to keep yourself from getting hurt. Is this a feeling you've had in the past with other Rs? You've said you have a hard time opening up. Is closing off the way you've dealt with things in the past?

Don't know if one or any of those things ring true, or a combo of them.

I'm more a European coffeehouse/margarita on the beach kinda girl myself

I'm with you on this one. Snow cave? Freight train! Whoa. Sounds like you're in a good place regarding this guy. Looks like it's going down the friend road. Still, be careful for the legal reasons you mentioned. I could see your H going nuts if "you had an A" and being a butt about a S and D.

I'm with you on the not feeling married thing. While at the Halloween party (the parts I remember anyway), I remember thinking for the first time that I'm really free to talk to any of these women without any restrictions on what happens after. Really sunk in for me.

Sigh, if I hadn't been quite so happy, might could've done a bit of devil dancin'. Poop.

Sounds like you both need some space to get your heads on straight. I feel a little bit like you, I'm starting to see more of my W's unattractive qualities and starting to begin to think about HER. I still love her and all, and I'm confident we could have a good life together. Yet, the more I think about it, sometimes I'm not as quite as confident that we could be a great couple and that she can give me what I need/want in a R. You're not alone there.

Muddle on through,

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

Maybe the way that he's been acting is allowing you to really evaluate your R, and him, for the first time without blinders on.

I think this may be part of it. When I think back on our R, I realize there were a *lot* of things missing for me. My contribution probably aggravated that, of course, but the possibility of finding someone with an, um, sunnier temperament is nice.

Could be a protective mechanism to keep yourself from getting hurt. Is this a feeling you've had in the past with other Rs?

I was left once before, and was devastated but immediately buried it (only to have it---the burying---bite me in the butt big-time later). This time I feel like I felt very, very sad, but guarded against stuffing those feelings. I certainly experienced them; I'm just not right now.

You've said you have a hard time opening up. Is closing off the way you've dealt with things in the past?

Definitely one of my biggest issues. Right now I feel like I could dig down and work up some sadness, anger, etc, but why would I? Since I'm generally not good at this kind of thing, it's hard for me to tell whether I've really "gone through" it or not. Not sure how to figure that out either. Guess I'll just give myself some time.

I'm with you on this one. Snow cave? Freight train! Whoa. Sounds like you're in a good place regarding this guy. Looks like it's going down the friend road.

Yeah, we're ... different. And I threw something fairly flirty out to him and he gave me a big "Whoa...." Seems to have his head on pretty straight about not doing anything potentially regrettable, so that's good (but...damn!).

Actually, despite what's apparently a clear rejection, I'm happy about doing that. It took some courage on my part, and in the past I 1) would never have done that, and 2) would've thought, "Great, rejection, I'm such a loser..." but now I just think, good for me for going for it. And that feels like a good place to be.

And to preempt any tawdry questions, I didn't proposition the guy. I'm not that brave yet! I think I left myself a decent out and responded gracefully. I hope.

I remember thinking for the first time that I'm really free to talk to any of these women without any restrictions on what happens after. Really sunk in for me.

That's great! Freeing, isn't it?

Sigh, if I hadn't been quite so happy, might could've done a bit of devil dancin'. Poop.

You'll have plenty of opportunities, I'm sure, though maybe without the devil costume.

I still love her and all, and I'm confident we could have a good life together. Yet, the more I think about it, sometimes I'm not as quite as confident that we could be a great couple and that she can give me what I need/want in a R.

I'm finding this kind of a sad place to be. I don't mean I'm feeling sad, but rather, "Wow, that's sad." Actually, when I think back over the M reflecting on what I'd really like and what I had, *that* feels pretty sad! Maybe H is right: He was just the first one to see it.

Muddle on through

Thanks, you, too. Muddling on...

Take care.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

man, you guys are depressing now.

Even if your M wasn't as good looking back on it (although I think our interpretation of it can be a little skewed, just as the WAS's can be, just not quite severe though).

ALL Ms are not perfect. I remember reading something that said, if you can say at least 20% of your M had good/positives times then you definitely have hope to save your M. And actually I don't really remember that exact percentage, but it was lower then I would have expected.

I also know, from experience, that people CAN change. You are changing and your H will most likely change thru all of this. Some people change for the better, and some the worse.

The reason I bring this up, is that I don't want you guys to think there is no way thing would ever work. Cause WHAT IF? what if a year from now, your spouse comes back and says, I am so sorry for what happened, I really DO still love you and want to work things out. We do learn from Michelle that when we change our reactions/ourselves, people change too. I know that your WAS aren't being very lovable people, but I promise they really aren't themselves right now. I think they are a product of circumstance, and that time will tell what person they really are and choose to be. My R with my H is definitely better than it was before.. it's not perfect, but perfection is for fairy tales.

Puddle, I did go thru a similar stage as well, just felt sorry for H, but not a lot of love. I was feeling very confident and almost excited for what God was shaping me to be and I had faith, (even made a list of the perfect man) that God would give me someone. I think it is okay for you to feel this way.. definitely better than bitterness and anger. And if your still feeling compassion for him, that is good and I believe it's very important.

[Heimlich]

I can't speak for Puddle, but I'm far from depressed at the moment. I would love for my W to tell me she still loves me. If it's a year from now, in all honesty, I can't project out that far. It's been 6 months already. I might be done by then. Heck, I might be "done" by next month. Who knows.

I know that my marriage, for most of it, was, at least in my mind, 70 to 80% good. I liked be married and I liked being married to her. Given a choice, she'd still be the first person I'd see in the morning and the last person I see at night. That said, I've finally gotten to the point that I'm not just going to wait for her to change her mind. If she does, great. If not, well, that's too bad for her -- and to an extent, our girls. But, I'm not married in any real since and am beginning to live like that. It's definately wierd.

BD

[L21959]

Puddle --

Have been following your thread (lurking...it's that time of year i guess!) for a while...lots of good interaction with a couple of my old pals; the rarely-present-anymore Nomo and the exotic Sunny! Saying that i've enjoyed reading your thread doesn't sound quite appropriate given the subject matter, does it? However, I do like your writing style and ability.... I'm getting back into the swim of posting again, and thought I'd jump in here:

I'm finding this kind of a sad place to be. I don't mean I'm feeling sad, but rather, "Wow, that's sad." Actually, when I think back over the M reflecting on what I'd really like and what I had, *that* feels pretty sad! Maybe H is right: He was just the first one to see it.

I can certainly relate to this feeling myself; there are times when i think 'I've invested virtually 1/2 my life in this R and this is where I am and what I've got?!?'

But I would guess that most people feel that way from time to time, even those who would consider themselves to have successful Ms. (I think that was ST's point...i'm quite the Luddite, so not good at manipulating these threads ) It's at times like those that, in a better world, we would all roll up our sleeves and get to work together bridging the gap between what we want in our M and what we have...if only!

And I guess what I keep coming back to is that at the end of the day, for those of us who have children of any age, a large part of what we do have together is them...and with only a very few exceptions we owe it to them to keep doing our part (even when it's on our own) in building that bridge...

Oh, and i could really go for a european cafe at the end of a slow-moving train ride through Europe itself, maybe watching the snow fall!!

Hope you're having a great day...

L2

[S.T. _I Made It!]

also, without the kids, you can end up breaking up and never having to see that person again if you don't want to. With kids, your R with your WAS NEVER ends.

Kids definitely play a bigger part in it don't they. If a family is able to stay together (w/o abusive Rs) it gives stability for our kids. I look highly on you both for putting the effort into saving your Ms as you have and are.

it is sad that D has become the norm for families now and that our WAS isn't understanding the dramatics of going thru a D.

[Puddle]

Hey Heim, ST, and L21959!

ST and L21989, I totally get what you're saying about never knowing what's going to happen, what changes the WAS may make, what might develop in a year. And you're also right about the kids: I get that I owe it to them to keep trying, at least while I'm able.

And Heim, I'm with you: certainly not depressed. I'm not with you in the love I'm feeling for the WAS and wishing I could see him in the morning and the evening. Maybe if I concentrated on a more positive him, I might like to see *that* person, but he's buried pretty deep right now.

So here's the thing, I think, maybe...: Letting go of *wanting* H is a huge relief. Not only does it help my PMA, GAL, etc, just the letting go itself feels good. I feel strong. I feel confident. I'm looking forward to life without him. (This may be what you were talking about, ST.)

I feel like I've moved on in my heart. I don't hope he'll change his mind; I don't feel like I've "lost hope," because that sounds negative. This is more of an absence. In fact, right now, I hope he does *not* change his mind.

So I find myself in this place where I think, wow, is that really all the fight I had in me? Is that how much I was willing to go through, for me, us, the kids? A piddly three months? Doesn't sound like much. It's a combination of feeling relieved and great on one hand, and a bit guilty for having let go so fast.

I've been thinking, boy, it's a good thing H is so certain, because if he did change his mind, I'd have to give it a shot and right now I do not want to. I wonder whether it's possible that this attitude is affecting the sitch, keeping him away from me (if he were even going to move back toward me).

Of course there's no way to know, and I get to go along being the one who wanted to work it out but didn't have the chance. Thoughts? Does that make sense?

Now, if I wanted to leave the door open, I'm not sure what I'd be doing differently. I'm friendly and pleasant, doing things for me and the kids, building the life I want. There's more I could be doing for me, and I'm working on getting there. But re H, I'm not sure what else to do.

I talked to my acquaintance the family court judge yesterday, and she's getting together a list of lawyers who do collaborative Ds for me. She said many cautioning things---wanted to know whether I *really* trust H not to hide funds, etc---and that was sobering. I asked her about dating, and she said we're no-fault here, so no worries about that.

She did say that if I were to do something like have guys staying at the house, H could claim I'm an unfit mother. So no worries about the D, but cautions re the kids. Very scary stuff. She said it would be a good idea to "limit dating" until things are worked out legally.

She echoed Nomo's caution that reassurances are worthless, said get it formalized in an S or D agreement. It was funny to me that she cautioned to make sure we're really, really done before getting a D, as if that were the end of all possibility. She also cautioned that mediation was going to be expensive---funny, considering it sounds a lot cheaper than traditional D, even with consulting attorneys on the side.

I went last night to volunteer at this great organization, hung out with some cool women, and am looking forward to working at their big upcoming event. Definitely cool, centered people. We can all use more of those in our lives!

Take care.

[Heimlich]

I wonder whether it's possible that this attitude is affecting the sitch, keeping him away from me (if he were even going to move back toward me).

Isn't this when, from what I've read of the success stories, the WAS keeps walking or starts looking back? Either way, keep on trucking.

I need to find somewhere to volunteer my time. Anyone have ideas for resources on where to look up that sort of thing?

BD