I am happy for you; I hope your approach works. Your situation sounds similar to mine; my W always has believed she was unlovable, a wound from childhood. Now that we are physically separated (have been for five months), I wonder if I too should pursue a bit more even though she says she wants space. I've given her that in droves. I've avoided begging, crying, pleading, etc. and all the other things everyone says not to do.
Still, here we are with no movement. She doesn't talk divorce, but she doesn't talk trying to date, talk, etc. She doesn't say much at all. I strongly believe she is in MLC depression. I'll own my failures, but this goes deeper than my faults as a person/husband.
She knows some of my new activities since the separation. I am hoping to attract her back, but I am starting to wonder if a new approach is needed, something in addition to the good GAL activities that I have pursued for myself.
So, what does pursuit, but not "too much" pursuit really look like???? I'd love some concrete examples, because as you and everyone else says, it's a fine line between confidence and neediness and other things that will, according to the experts, drive them further away.
I really heard the same things from my wife that you articulated, however, when I made decsions, she always offered my 48 suggestions for improvment, or told me flat out why I was wrong. She said she did not want to make decisions, but fought ery one I made. I told her that if you want me to lead, let me. it resulted in overwhelming anger. Sometimes you can't win. The Superior Man was recommended a long time ago by Frank_D, a cult hero on this board. Hopefully, you'll get the chnace to use the skills. Hang tough, brother.
I'm new to your sitch, but it looks promising. Pursuing is something that would not work for me, but might represent a 180 for you. As long as you are getting those kinds of responses, go for it. While it show amazing confidence for you to say that you that you would not resist the separation, I agree with Dom that you never want to hasten a result that you do not want. Be strong, but careful
Me-46;W-42 Together 23 yrs Married 16 S11 S8 S6 02/10/03 Her 1st affair 10/01/06 Sep Bomb 01/01/07 Sep Begins 03/09/07 Her 2nd affair
Still trying I love the way you have managed to change your attitude towards her and yourself, and I hope your weekend away goes really well. If you stick to your plan, I don't know how she could resist you. Let us know how you get on.
Well folks, back from Key West. It was a mixed trip, good and bad and pretty much representative of the last few months of my life. It was also a chance to try out my new strategy and I'd love to say I stuck with the plan but I failed numerous times. I succeeded a lot too so hopefully there was enough positive to keep her interested.
This may be longish, sorry
Our first day there wasn't so great. I drank a bit too much and shortly after we arrived I lost a contact lens. I didn't bring any spares, or my glasses so I was pretty much blind from 4 PM on. DOH! After I lost my contact I went back to the condo we were staying at to see if by chance I did have glasses and to at least take my contact out (better to be half blind than walk around like a pirate). I started to head back but I got out on the street and realized I was unfamiliar with the area and how to get back and I couldn't read street signs or anything, so I went back to ask for help getting back and W came to escort me. On the way back she mentioned I should get laser surgery for my eyes and I told her we'd always agreed she gets the tummy tuck first. She said she had pretty much thought that was off the table and that I probably wouldn't want to take care of her for weeks afterwards. I asked why she thought that and she said because I've been keeping her at arms length lately. What is that supposed to mean? So I told her that confused me and that I didn't know how I was keeping her at arms length when all I wanted was to be closer to her but we figured it wasn't the time to get into it so I let it drop.
That night was ok, I was pretty much blind so it was a rough situation. We hung out in a bar for a bit and had fun. I actually spent an hour there chatting with a woman. Yes in front of W. No I wasn't trying to tick her off, but another guy we were with went over to talk to some ladies and I went over to join in and ended up getting into a nice conversation with a woman from Wisconsin. Wasn't trying to pick her up anything, but it was nice to know that I had it in me to go up to a woman in a bar and talk (I don't think I've ever done that) and that some women at least find me interesting. I was kind of distant because that arms length comment kind of ticked me off. Later we headed back to the condo and I was feeling a bit spinny from all the alcohol so I went out to walk. W went to Denny's for hash browns with her former boss, missed out on that. I think she was a bit miffed I took off and didn't go with her. Chalk that up for a mistake. I got back to the condo and went to bed, being a bit drunkish I was stupid and sent her an I love you text message. Stupid. No response of course.
She got back and I was in bed, she said I looked like I had a thousand things to say. I did but didn't want to get into it because I drank too much and it wouldn't have been a good conversation. Really at the time I was back into the 'why do I still give a [censored] for this woman who is afraid to let me close and isn't willing to see how much I care about her' mode.
The next morning I managed to find an optomotrist on the island and got some new contacts fitted while W went to a spa. Then we went out for lunch and had a nice time. After that we relaxed for a bit at the condo and then went out exploring some more. I went scootering around the island with another guy there while W went shopping with her girlfriend and her old boss. I wondered if I should have offered to go with them but I was in the show her I don't need to follow her around everywhere mode so I didn't. Later on we went out to a bar and had a great time, sat next to the ladies room and there was a group of rowdy guys trying to get every woman to walk by to flash them (it's fantasy fest in key west, which is kind of like a mardi gra type thing). Very entertaining.
Later on we had our crisis. Got a voicemail from the neighbors saying that our daughter was locked out of the house for several hours. I called my parents to find out what was going on and it turned out my dad had locked the inner garage door (we never do, so that the kids can use the keypad on the garage door to get in). Apparently he knew he did it and knew D couldn't get in after school and was planning to try and break in with a credit card. I let him have it. She's only 11 and shouldn't be locked out of the house like that. I was ticked. I have a strained relationship with my parents and I've never really stood up to them. W commented on how impressed she was with how I handled it. Maybe some bonus points there, who knows. Anyway, we called a locksmith to go out and rekey the locks and then headed out to dinner.
Dinner was good, W drank a bit much though. At dinner she was a bit upset, the kids situation and the alcohol got to her. She went out and was talking on the phone for a while. After a bit I got worried so I went out to check on her and she was on the phone with one of her friends crying. I took the phone and chatted with her friend and just held her for a minute, listening and validating and all that. Got her calmed down, it was nice to be able to be there for her. Then an odd thing happened. We were standing there by a parking meter and it had just expired so she was asking people walking by if they had any change. One guy did and she said thank you and let me give you a kiss to thank you. So she gave him a kiss. Being the non jealous not needy man that I was I said "come on, that wasn't a 20 minute kiss" since we put 20 minutes on the meter. So then she totally started making out with him, tongue and all! Now a lot of guys would get pissed off here, but I don't really care, I know it's meaningless. Of course it does tick me off that I don't get any kisses Anyway after that I pulled her to me and gave her a hug and she said "I'm not going to kiss you." I said I know, even though you'll kiss a random stranger. She said "yeah but it doesn't mean anything" and I said "Well at least that says that I mean something to you" and she agreed.
Can you say surreal interaction...
Anyway, after dinner we went out to get a few drinks and W was a bit of a mess. Too much to drink, too much anxiety over the kids and she was just done. So I walked her back to the condo and put her to bed before heading back out. She did give me a kiss (quick peck on the lips) and told me thank you.
Next day was friday and it was our big day. Not too much excitement during the day, had some nice breakfast and time by the pool. Later on we went out to get a few drinks and people watch as it was starting to get crowded and fun out there. This was the big night W was getting painted. The thing to do during fantasy fest is to go topless with body paint, and W was going to go for it. We went to the condo to get cleaned up for their painting appointment and W had a shot of liquid courage before we headed out. Got all painted up and was looking AMAZING. She wore a short pleated denim skirt with ruffled red panties and got a bandana painted on her top. I had gotten her a nice mask to wear to hide her identity, spent $75 on it and she reluctantly let me splurge for her. So she was moderately hidden. After that we pretty much wondered around, got some food and drinks and just had a good time. Her and her painted friend were stopped constantly for pictures. It was actually really fun.
Unfortunately at one point I lost them, the place was absolutely packed and I got separated. I wandered back to the condo to go to the bathroom because I figured I didn't have a chance in hell of finding them in the crowd. I was also carrying W's cellphone so I couldn't call her. She was with several other people so I wasn't worried about her, otherwise I'd probably be freaking out since she was topless in a crowd of people and had a bit to drink... Later on she called me from her boss' phone and left me a VM saying where they were so I headed over. She seemed a bit ticked, said she was really worried about me and didn't know where I was. Also it turned out that she ended up in a bar with her boss and he started to get a little inappropriate so she was glad I showed up to rescue her. We didn't stay there long, but after that everyone else went home and W and I walked the street a bit more, got some more pics taken and enjoyed the crowd. Got some frozen custard and then headed back to the condo. She was somewhat affectionate, we held hands briefly but she didn't seem to into it. At one point we stopped and were talking about 12" apart and I could see that she wanted to kiss me. Not going to fall for that though, I just smiled
Saturday is the big day. Again another day of lounging around. W took a nap in the afternoon and while she did that I headed out with the gang. We sat on a pier and had a few drinks and watched some ladies get painted. After that we met up with W and went to a bar to get some food and drinks (common theme eh?) and had a nice time there. I was hitting it off with her female friend, she became my partner in crime. Anyway it was good, bartender was great and it was off the strip a bit so no huge crowd. After that we went back to the condo to watch the sunset and get ready for the big night. W got a bejweled bra to wear that left little to the imagination and she was wearing it out that night. She wore that, with a matching dangly skirt over top of some velvet shorts. Looked amazing of course. I was out on the patio watching the sunset and she sent me a text asking to come help her get ready. Woo! We got all ready and then went out to watch the big parade and it was a lot of fun.
After that we headed back to the bar we were at earlier and had some food and drinks. We sat up on the rooftop deck and there was a live band playing, it was great. Good people, good music, lots of half naked women and flirting. I really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I kept buying shots for the band and our server and joining them and I got pretty drunk. Had fun though After we left there everyone else was done, so W and I headed out on our own to walk around a bit. Really good time. We had a ton of fun just walking and enjoying each other. This time she actually held my hand at several points and we walked arm in arm a lot (she initiated). Going back to the condo the fancy bra was hurting her so I took off my shirt and she took off the bra and put my shirt on. She was telling me how hot I looked. Of course we got into the sexy talk here and she said how much she wanted me but that it wasn't going to happen. DOH. I was still fairly drunk and I ended up telling her I wanted to marry her. She said we're already married and I didn't say that I didn't feel like it. Instead I just smiled and said "I'm going to marry you again some day and this time do it right". Somehow we got talking about how I didn't get down on one knee and propose and I asked her if I got down on one knee and proposed would she marry me again. She said that's a pretty heavy question and left it at that.
But we had a great time.
Sunday we did some shopping in the morning and then flew back, and that was my trip.
Not sure what to make of it all. All week long she introduced people to me as my husband. She'd take pictures with all the guys on the street and point me out and say wave to my husband! Made me feel kind of weird. At one point I was admiring our waitress and she told me to stop staring and I asked why? She kind of shrugged and said 'eh, you're right'. She's oogling people all week anyway, but it seems she had a tad bit of jealousy there (she claims she's never jealous, but I've never believed that).
So the positives... She did give me a kiss at one point, although a light one. She did hold my hand and we walked arm in arm for a while. She did say she's still attracted to me. We had a lot of fun together. I think I demonstrated my lack of neediness fairly well as she made out with a random guy and walked around topless and I didn't have issues with it. I stood up to my father which impressed her.
Negatives... She thinks I'm keeping her at arms length. She said things several times that hint at the fact that she thinks I don't like her or I'm resentful of her. I did get withdrawn a few times, it's hard to stay positive and confident when your W rejects you at every turn.
So a mixed bag. I still find myself waffling between confident letting her know I want her without being needy, and getting ticked off at the fact that she won't let me in and there are a lot of woman out there who would value and appreciate me when she does not. I need to get strong and stay there, although a lot of my down moments were with mass quantities of alcohol (memo to self, stay sober around W).
Sometimes I feel like this is all a big test. That if I can show her for a while that I want her, don't need her and won't give up and will fight for her and not withdraw that then she'll come back. I just have to find it in me to do that. It's so damn hard some days to keep trying when she won't.
Still not quite sure how to play the separation. In light of the whole arms length thing I feel like I need to take the initiative and keep on trying. In other words, call her and chat, after a while ask her out, stay confident and positive. It's tempting to just go dark, show her she's lost me and try to get her to fight for me. But I know W and that will fail, she'll just see that as not caring and drift away from me. As much as it sucks, it's on my shoulders to save this M. I have no doubt in my mind that if I give up, then it will absolutely be over. I hate carrying this burden and spend a lot of time wondering if it's worth it. But then we have so much fun together and compliment each other in so many ways, I can't give up yet.
still trying.... i think you majorly need to get your head straightened out.
This is going to be a very honest, "raw" post from me.
You "wonder why she thinks you're keeping her at arms length". But you go chat up other women, and ignore her.
Then you TELL HER TO MAKE OUT WITH ANOTHER MAN. Being the non jealous not needy man that I was I said "come on, that wasn't a 20 minute kiss" There's "non jealous", and there's ... whatever the heck you did. That was just plain twisted.
I think I demonstrated my lack of neediness fairly well as she made out with a random guy and walked around topless and I didn't have issues with it.
She's your wife... you should have issues with it!!!
I'm really glad for the positive moments that you had with your wife. I hope that you can hang on to them, and let them help you with your motivation with the future. I think you really need to rein in your whole "I'm not a needy guy" act, to something a little more sane, though.
It's one thing to choose to let your wife have some "freedom". It's another thing to encourage her to become some kind of spring break college girl though. wierd.
I hope you managed to have fun together more. good luck
Last edited by Dom R; 10/29/0703:45 PM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
Eh, I know, weird. But ya know, this wasn't a "fix our marriage" style trip. It's fantasy fest in key west, think mardi gra but with more nudity. It's pretty much a get a little crazy drink too much atmosphere. I don't know what exactly she means about me keeping her at arms length, but I'm positive it's not about the things you mention. We've talked about this before and neither of us have a problem with us talking to other people or random kissing, it's meaningless and doesn't change anything about our M. I know others wouldn't agree with that, but to each their own
Anyway, the arms length thing, I dunno. All I can figure is she's referring to the fact that I'm trying to give her space or not really being open and talking about my life with her. I guess I need to work on that. Like I said I feel like this is a big test. It's incredibly hard to be open and loving and engaged with someone when you are almost constantly rejected by them however. I guess it's a sign I need to detach some more, yet also in a more loving manner. If I can master that, show my interest and love for her without being needy and without getting hurt when she doesn't seem open to it, I think I'll have a good shot at getting her back. It's hard though because I have to deal with the frequent snips, the fact that she focuses on all of my failures and not my successes and the fact that she chooses to spend more time on her friendships than our M. Not to mention all the conflicting signs I get.
Gotta be a rock. Let her emotional states wander and stay solid in my position. I do think perseverance will pay off if I can muster the courage and not succumb to the rejection and hurt. I also need to make sure to let her make the first moves when it comes to affection and physical contact and stop asking for more or trying to initiate hand holding, etc. I think maybe that comes off as needy. My pursuit strategy has to be an emotional/intellectual pursuit and not a physical one. I need to throw my heart out there again and again and again and keep doing it no matter how many times she smashes it, and each time gently pick it up and continue to love her.
Sounds great! Now I just have to figure out how to do it without feeling hurt and dejected every time she seems to want nothing to do with me...
ST: some things, are not a "to each his own" issue.
There are apparently lots of people who think that "swinging" is just fine, and it doesnt affect their marriage. They're wrong. it does affect their marriage. It makes it a different marriage, than between two people who are completely 100% committed emotionally and physically to each other.
Now, you may not want that kind of marriage. you may be quite content with only the first kind. That is certainly your choice. I suggest that you dont try to fool yourself that there is no price to pay, however.
The thing is,... it's the second type of marriage, that best survives things like affairs, MLCs, and separation.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
Well, uneventful night. W skipped school last night and we went out to get the kids halloween costumes and then went out to dinner. Had an ok time, nothing much happened. Came home and she got on the computer and we sat around for a while. She actually IM'd me, got some chuckles from her:
W: Hey there Me: Yo W: a/s/l? Me: 30/m/10 feet W: HAWT Me: you please me W: creepy man
Dunno about the creepy part, here I am trying to say I enjoy her and I get that. Ah well. Went to bed later and fell asleep, W came up around 12. At one point in the night I woke up and rolled over and my hand brushed hers. She grabbed it and we fell asleep holding hands. It was nice, but I'm pretty sure she was half asleep or she'd never have done that.
This whole situation confuses me endlessly. I'm somewhat jealous of the guys around here whose W's are clearly done and have no emotional investment in the M. I get so many mixed signals it's driving me crazy. One day I'll just start to feel like she doesn't give a damn about me and the next she does something that seems to show she really does care. No idea what to do about that, the yoyo is getting tiring. There are so many signs that she is obviously still emotionally invested in me, and it seems clear there are things she still wants from me. Yet I feel like I'm flying blind, like there are things she needs from me but either won't let me give them to her or won't tell me what they are. And she still wants me to be more open and honest but I haven't figured out how to do that yet, I can't see what good it would do to pour out my feelings for her constantly...
I do feel it's all a big test, like she's just sitting back waiting for me to show her the man she wants me to be. Yet how can I do that when I am constantly rejected and unloved, when I get all these mixed signals, when she clearly wants things from me but won't say what they are? I feel really unloved. It's hard to continue to be strong and confident and let her know I care about her when I'm rejected at every turn. The part that really pisses me off though is that this could be so easy to get out of if she would just be willing to try. If she would let me be close, make some efforts to tell me what she needs and what we should do to fix our M, we could make a go of it. But she won't. I can see in her eyes at times how she wants to be close, but she won't let herself. She needs to forgive me but she has to make that choice. She needs to give me a chance and take that risk and let us get close again, but she isn't willing to.
So yeah, today I'm just feeling frustrated. I keep thinking about how many women out there would appreciate me and love me for what I'm willing to go through, for my devotion and desire to grow and make a R work. It seems so much easier to just give up and move on. Why shouldn't I? Yet I think that desire comes from feeling hurt and rejected and not from my desire to truly move on. But that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.
