Help me thru this sitch

[Heimlich]

He seems to be more comfortable asking me to do things or talking in general with me because I now do not react immediately or get defensive.

Ding, ding, ding. Keep doing that.

Joan, be patient on folks commenting. Everybody here is hurt to one degree or another. Shouting me, me, me isn't all that attractive, eh? By the way, is that something you do in personal life or just driven by the fact that you want help yesterday? Patience. Cultivate it for your sitch or go insane (or at least mildly nuts).

Your H is trying to do things for you and is talking to you in a civil manner. That's good. Built on that. Don't push the R talk for a while. I know that my W said she felt smothered. It was like I had diarrhea of the mouth. Don't do that. It's bad.

He has the OW and is going out with her tomorrow, I'm pretty sure, haven't asked and yet he still tries to treat me like nothing is going on, and everything is normal. How do men do that?

Don't lump us all together. Seems to me that you two swung/swang/swinged together (or at the same time, whatever, details aren't important) during your M. So, to him, this could just be a continuation of that. That make sense? He's probably not intentionally trying to hurt you. After all, you've done this before. I know it's different for you this time, but still, might not feel different to him.

I so want to hug him and have things be alright. Dang.

Pretty good summation of how all of us are feeling. Well, I'd like to hug "her," but you get my drift.

As we all say, keep the focus on you. And, especially for you, be as patient as you can possibily be. It's going to take all that you have and then some.

BD

[Pudmuddle]

Hi Heimlich,

Joan, be patient on folks commenting. Everybody here is hurt to one degree or another. Shouting me, me, me isn't all that attractive, eh? By the way, is that something you do in personal life or just driven by the fact that you want help yesterday? Patience. Cultivate it for your sitch or go insane (or at least mildly nuts).

Well yes I was sorely in need of someone to talk to yesterday, so I apologize to all of my fellow hurtees. And yes, it was something I did do in the past because I didn't know how to get H to pay attention to me. I have been working on that, and apparently still have some latent, as you call it, (LOL) diarrhea of the brain on that. I'll continue to work on that.

We had a fairly good day to day, altho he lost his debit card an immediately accused me for taking it. ??? I said"Why would I want to do that?" and then he said it was just a question. So I could feel verbal vomit coming up(ew lots of bodily functions today), and I quickly tried to db and said"you need to look inside yourself and quit blaming me". Then I started to go for my walk and he grabbed my elbow and said, "It was a question that's all, and it was the first thought that came into my mind"

I put my hand on his heart and patted him and I said "Just take care of you", then went for my walk. After I returned I started just merrily asking him questions about the garage doors(we are trying to sand and paint them) and he said "I'm really sorry for thinking that, it was not the first thing that came into my mind, but I did think it and I am sorry". I said"that's cool, and thanks for acknolwedging that". Then we happily started sanding the garage door together. Whee.

Don't lump us all together.

Normally I don't lump all men together, I try to carefully watch that, because I do not believe all men are evil, even with all that is going on.

Yes we did swang together, but really not with any couples and he and I only were with one other person each separately. He does not see this as a continuation, because he admitted he cheated(behind my back things) and that he thinks he loves her. Even if you swing cheating is not allowed. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks BD, I always appreciate your gentle reminders.

[Pudmuddle]

Oh, I changed my JoanS to Pudmuddle Snafu. Just keepin' the wee bit o'humor in the sitch, I guess.

[sandi2]

Hi Joan, I know how frustrating it is when you don't feel like many people are responding to your posts. I wanted to but frankly didn't know what to say. I tried to go back and read some of the thread but my head is hurting.....so could you just kind of catch me up to date about something? I read where your H wanted the two of you to get into "swinging" and that is where he met the OW. But, if I read correctly, he was jealous of you and maybe some OM? If I'm wrong, I apologize. What I was wondering about if he considers the two of you still in this lifesyle. If so, then that is why he probably is as "free" (for lack of a better word) with seeing the OW. I take it, though, you decided you didn't want to partake of the swinging life....am I correct about that? I am very old fashion and don't know a lot about this sort of thing, but from what I have read in books....and if I understood it correctly...."swingers" are couple that go to parties and both partners can have sex with anyone they choose to have sex with at the party...or maybe they leave...I don't know, but I think they both indulge. Anyway, I read where an "open marriage" was when the individuals were free to have sex with anyone at anytime whether the spouse had sex with somebody at the same time or not. I don't know about "dating".......I thought it was just free to have the sex act with others.....nothing emotional or no long term stuff like dating, etc. I don't think couples that are easily jealous of each other could handle either type of lifestyle. I think your H was jealous of the thought of you being with another man, but then he liked being with another woman! Pretty one-sided, huh?

Anyway, I may be confussed about all of it and it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that I think from what I read that you want to save your M. Sweetie, I think you have a hard row to tow. He has had a taste of it now and he is enjoying himself. But, apparently he is not going from one woman to another......he is stuck on one. I got the idea he used the "swinger" concept just for his excuse to be with her.

Well, I am talking in circles. I am here if you want to talk. I just am kind of at a loss as to what to say right now.....in the way of any advice. If you decide you want to hang in there and fight for him, I certainly wish you the best. Maybe it will run its course and the thing for the OW will burn out and he will get his eyes open before a D is final. Some still hang on to hope even when a D has finalized. I guess until he is M to another, you can always hope. One thing for sure, you have found out you can be a better person and I encourage you to work on that.....for yourself...nobody else. Respect yourself, honey, and don't let anyone make you feel less valuable. Do things that will help you to like yourself more. Read self-help books and eat a good diet and work out. Keep a good mental attitude. All these things help us to heal and to deal with the bad stuff.

Take care and keep coming back to journal. Don't give up on the board. Sometimes I go for quite a spell that nobody post on my thread, but I just go read others and post to them....lol. It helps a lot.

[nephartiti]

Hi, Joan and welcome.

It sounds like you have a great start on the DB. One of the crucial points is starting some 180's. Think of some positive things you can do differently than you have in the past.

Also, try to avoid the sarcasm with your H. If he starts to "spew" try to validate him. Even if his feelings/point of view sounds far fetched, it is his reality. No one likes to be told they are wrong. He has to realize these things himself, but he won't if he feels he has to justify himself with you.

I know it is mind boggling how he can act as if nothing is wrong. Sorry, but he is most likely like so many others. He has convinced himself that he is not doing anything wrong. He is convinced that he know longer loves you and now loves someone else.

Your job is tricky. You have to remind him of who you are-the woman he fell in love with and married. You have to do this subtly so that you don't appear needy or in pursuit of him.

The good news is, he is still in the house and you still have lots of contact with him. You still have an opportunity to show him your changes and draw him back to you.

Start using what you've learned in the 5 love Languages too. A man who feels loved does not have to look elsewhere for validation.

[Pudmuddle]

Hi Sandi!

So good to see you on my post, I love your insight.

Well here's the way I see the whole swinging thing. About a year and a half ago when this all started, I feared that he was doing this so that he could "find" someone else and not have to deal with me. (I wasn't purdy back then - low mental attitude). Then we he met the OW he actually "dated" her and did not treat it like a swinging thing - which to me is, excuse my subliminal french here, it is an F me society, not a come date me and love me forever society. I could tell right off from the start that he had a really hard time with this concept. I could also tell that he was NOT making our marriage a priority any longer, hence we sat down together and talked about making our marriage a priority and I asked him to stop seeing her for a short bit. In hindsight I think maybe it was not fair of me to do this after we agreed to swing but I was feeling left out. But he agreed and broke it off, but was VERY emotional about it afterwards so I knew there was more to it than he let on. And in the old days, the old me snooped into his email and found out that she was still sending him emails, but he was not responding. But she said things like "I know how your current situation is, but I would like to see you" which hit me like ton of bricks. Obviously he had been telling her everything about our marriage!! Which was another rule that we both agreed we would follow: Never talk about your marriage, spouse or problems we are having. Well, apparently he did not follow that and he needed someone to talk to and it wasn't me...:(

So Sandi I think you are right on with your concept of swinging, because that is how I see it too, no emotions just sex stuff. But I think he used it as a way to find happiness elsewhere. In addition, we also discovered that the swinging world is "a woman's world". What I mean by that is that women have most of the control in that world, because they are the ones who attract others, and have the decision in who they will be with. Most men in the lifestyle, (not to lump men in a category again, but) are ok with having sex with most any woman.

My husband told me that this just blew him away and every time we came back from a lifestyle bar or event, he would seem extremely down on his ego and cranky. I think he couldn't, at the time control his M or me, and now he could not have control in the swinger lifestyle. So he ran(many, many times) to the only person who wasn't rejecting him. I also have seen him going through a MLC which has added to him thinking he wants out of what he has...ie., used to complain about balding, starting trying to keep in shape more, bought a streetbike, a convertible, etc, etc, and now he has a young hottie on the side.

He thinks his ego and self-esteem are just fine, but I see the insecure person. He is very proud and doesn't show feelings much, so he would never admit this.

I DO want to stay married to him sandi, I just can't imagine him not in my life in that capacity. Having him as just a friend, would make me feel terrible too.

So for right now I WANT him to see the OW as much as possible, so that their "R" can run its course and things will start turning. Romps in the hay are hardly my idea of a relationship but whatever.

update: So, after he spent the night at OW and my S10 had spent the night at his cousin's house, it was 10:00 the next morning before they came home...I had texted him earlier asking if I need to pick up our S. He had my S call me back and say they were on the way. Then when my S said:"ok here's dad", I hung up because I honestly had nothing to say to him.

Then it took all the strength I had to hug him when he came in and I said "Glad your safe". And that was all I said. Before I would have cried and said where were you all night, how could you do that, blah blah blah. See even saying it now bores me, lol. Takes so much energy! I was shaking like a leaf, but I didn't let him see and I just continued folding laundry. I think that took him aback, because I didn't get much after that.

I went into my bedroom and continued doing my beading work. I showed my son a new piece I had made so we were laughing and talking. My H came in 5 minutes later to see.

Then my son left the room and my H said accusatorily, "so did your DATE pick you up or did you drive" He was asking because the gas gauge is on the same spot. (So he is monitoring my mileage and gas?) I said I drove and went to a Halloween party. I went as a Sexy little devil (LOL). The fact of the matter is I spent a wonderful evening by myself at home, doing things for me, all those girly things we love to do. It was AWESOME!

Then he and my son were loading up to go dirtbiking, and I was going to go for a walk. I pulled him aside and said "Can you talk". He said yes and we went down the driveway so my S was out of earshot. Idon't know if this was right, but I am trying to show him that I am changing, so I said "first of all, I am NOT dating anyone, I don't need another person to make me feel good, boost my ego or validate my feelings right now. I am working on me and I feel damn good. Second, I know we have made mistakes in the past, but I can change the future me, and I'm not being judgemental but we are still married and the new me would consider dating someone else cheating...unless we had both agreed on it together" He had kind of a stunned looked on his face and didn't say anything, so I said, cheerfully "OK, well you two have fun riding". And I left for my walk.

So I hope he is out there riding and having all this work through his head.

[Pudmuddle]

Hi Neph,

I think I am off to a good start to, so thank you for noticing! I think my guardian angel was watching out for me and sent me DB just in the nick of time. (I hope).

You are right, the 180s are hard for me, but I did have a revealing one while writing in my journal last night. I realized that in the past, when he comes in and asks me something, I just gave an indifferent answer and that was that. Also I remembered that when I would go out by myself or with friends and I as out all night, I would be careless about letting him know where I was and what I was doing. So I think he feels like he lost some of that control (knowing if I was safe and ok). So now I am wondering if one of my 180s is to let him know exactly what I am doing, where I am and when I will be home, do you think? Also, I am now practicing being more responsive in our convos, being a reflective listener and showing him interest by explaining my days in more detail than I used to. Because thinking back a few years, I used to get so angry because he would call him mom or sister just to talk about his day, and I could NOT figure out why he wasn't telling me! But now I get it! D'oh!

And unfortunately Neph, I am a sarcastic person by nature, but I have become aware that with his self esteem looming low, this just hits him hard, no that he tells me, but I can see it now. So I have been working on being a nice and proper lady when speaking, lol.

I'm still having a hard time with the LL and figuring his out, but I am working on that as well. He did offer to read the book, but it is still sitting in the furthest corner of his room as if it has the plague. But, the small positive here :), I see that at least it is IN his room and he will see it and maybe secretly read some of it soon.

Thanks for coming to my post Neph! Maybe I can read yours soon.

[Puddle]

Hey puddlemuddle snafu (I was going to shorten that but realized it would be pms... )

Welcome here. I see a couple things in your posts I'd like to respond to.

Then it took all the strength I had to hug him when he came in and I said "Glad your safe". And that was all I said. Before I would have cried and said where were you all night, how could you do that, blah blah blah.

This is excellent! Good for you, whether your knees were shaking or not. And I'm sure H was taken aback, which means he noticed a change. That is good.

Then my son left the room and my H said accusatorily, "so did your DATE pick you up or did you drive" He was asking because the gas gauge is on the same spot. (So he is monitoring my mileage and gas?) I said I drove and went to a Halloween party.

The WAS can be really strange in this way, I've found. H asked me once if I'd taken his car, since the odometer was three miles past what he remembered it had been. Whatever.

The fact of the matter is I spent a wonderful evening by myself at home, doing things for me, all those girly things we love to do. It was AWESOME!

Wait, so you *didn't* go to the party?

"first of all, I am NOT dating anyone, I don't need another person to make me feel good, boost my ego or validate my feelings right now

I'm with you right up to "anyone"; the rest sounds like it's pointed at H, as in "*I* don't need another person, but clearly *you* do..."

I am working on me and I feel damn good.

Excellent.

but we are still married and the new me would consider dating someone else cheating...unless we had both agreed on it together"

Not sure about this part. You guys are in a bit of a different place, where you've had other partners in the past by agreement, so it's a bit of a gray area. I think for clarity I might've said something like "I'd prefer that we agree to make our M exclusive," but clearly is not the time to say that, anyway. Again, I'm not really sure.

He had kind of a stunned looked on his face and didn't say anything, so I said, cheerfully "OK, well you two have fun riding". And I left for my walk.

The ending sounds really good. You said what you wanted to fairly briefly, and left cheerfully.

The only thing I'd say here is, in the future, wait for H to initiate the R convos. Show him the changes you're making instead of telling him about them.

I realized that in the past, when he comes in and asks me something, I just gave an indifferent answer and that was that. Also I remembered that when I would go out by myself or with friends and I as out all night, I would be careless about letting him know where I was and what I was doing. So I think he feels like he lost some of that control (knowing if I was safe and ok).

These are excellent insights! Keep on journaling and keep those insights coming, and it'll help you design your roadmap for what to change.

So now I am wondering if one of my 180s is to let him know exactly what I am doing, where I am and when I will be home, do you think?

That's an interesting thought. Normally the DB stuff says to do your own thing, stay a bit mysterious, etc, but if you've done that in the past and it's part of what came between you and H, I think it's a good idea. You don't have to go into too much detail: "I'm going to the drug store, then the drycleaners, then the post office...." but perhaps, "I'm running some errands and I'll be back by x" or "I'm going to dinner with some friends and will be back around x" might be something he'd appreciate. It'd be a 180 for you.

Also, I am now practicing being more responsive in our convos, being a reflective listener and showing him interest by explaining my days in more detail than I used to. Because thinking back a few years, I used to get so angry because he would call him mom or sister just to talk about his day, and I could NOT figure out why he wasn't telling me! But now I get it! D'oh!

Another excellent insight and 180 for you. Keep it up. What did you say H's LL is?

I am a sarcastic person by nature, but I have become aware that with his self esteem looming low, this just hits him hard, no that he tells me, but I can see it now. So I have been working on being a nice and proper lady when speaking

Sarcasm is poison to any relationship, be it with your H or your son or anyone else, so work hard on that one. Say what you mean clearly and directly. In the past I would've also said I'm sarcastic "by nature," but now I know it's not nature, it's mostly habit. Break it.

Oh, and don't give H any more books to read. You work on *you*, not him, and see what happens.

Take care.

[Pudmuddle]

Gosh, I love this forum stuff, it is so helpful to get insight into how I am projecting myself. Thank you Puddle, and you can shorten my name to PS, lol @ pms, didn't see that one. D'oh!

I can see clearly that he is still trying to work through his feelings for me, when he still questions where I am at and what I am doing, even though he feels he is not supposed to be caring about me right now.

No, I ended up not going to the party because I really wanted some alone time by myself and didn't feel like partying in a loud atmosphere, I WAS going to go but ended up not. I know it kind of still sounds a little deceitful, but that truly wasn't my intent...something I am still working on, being more grounded inside.

And you're right I realized after I has said that that it had been directed at him in the end, and that was not my intent also. It seems that I feel like I have this stuff down in my head I know exactly what to say, but when we actually start talking, I get flustered and am trying too hard and forget what to say. I am still practicing this as well.

the only thing that concerns me about waiting for him to talk is that he thinks that when I don't bring things up that I don't care and he can just go on his merry way. But you're right again (darnit!, lol). I do need to wait until he needs to talk out his feelings. Again, practice, practice, practice.

I also have had many comments from peeps here on the fact that we kind of do have a grey area regarding the seeing other people thing. So now I kind of look at his seeing this OW behind my back as a continuation of the swinger thing, even though he feels he is extremely emotionally attached to her right now and has to be loyal to her by not being emotional or physical with me. Kind of odd, but he has been emotionally attached to her from day 1, which tells me he was trying to get my attention on what he needed.

Yeah, the 180 of telling him my daily whereabouts confused me to since it seemed to oppose the LRT, but I think I might try it and see where it lands with him. If not a good thing, I can go back to being detached.

Yes, I've realized I do the sarcasm and don't have too, it was a defense system for recognizing flaws in myself and others and trying to make it seem funny by being sarcastic. But I see now that that has only damaged things. Maybe if anything comes out of this, I will be a proper lady!! Haha

Yes, I saw that the book thing, even though he said he would, kind of backfired because its still sitting in its cordoned off spot. I will stop that...for now.

Thanks for your keen insight Puddle. I really do appreciate the constructive feedback.

[Pudmuddle]

Well, I found the lyrics to that song I thought should be the them song for many of us here on DB.

http://seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Gramm-Lou/Midnight-Blue.html

Read it and tell me what you think! It's one of my current faves to listen to, to keep me going.