Thanks for checking up on me .. and your continued concern. I really appreciate that!
Well .. there really has not been too much to report. I have been continuing to post (and read up on other's situations) on different depression forums. I realize that might sound bizarre, but it just helps me to "know" that what is going on with my husband is something that he has little control over. (Because of the toxic .. for him .. medications that he is on.)
I see it over and over .. no matter what depression forum I might read .. individuals that have revealed their bizarre reaction to the Effexor (antidepressant) their doctors had prescribed for them. Of course, not all .. apparently this is a "wonder drug" for many out there.
Anyway .. when I read these individuals accounts of what happened to them .. well, it is just uncanny how it matches up to my H's.
Because I have already (several times) spoken to my H's pdoc (without H knowing it) and his pdoc disagreed with me, I have not gone the route of continuing to harp on that. As of the last appointment, both my H and I told his pdoc how much better he had been doing (after introducing Campral) with his drinking. (Not a lot, but .. an improvement) After hearing this, his pdoc went through a series of questions to see where his depression was "at". It was quite evident .. that even with the improvement in his drinking, his medications were not helping him.
So .. my hopes are that when he runs through all of those questions at H's next appointment (early Nov.) he will discover the exact same thing. I am expecting (SO HOPING!) that this will indicate to the pdoc that there should (must?) be a change.
Of course .. I am going to continue showing my presence. Otherwise things will revert back to same ol, same ol .. I am sure of it.
Thanks much for asking! I will be checking in on your thread later today.
Hi - You asked me to weigh in with my opinion, so here I am.
Ugh. Your husband's treatment reads like a pharmaceutical nightmare to me. It is an unfortunate failing of our current mainstream approach to medicine, that we rely too much on medical "band-aids" and do too little to solve the underlying causes of problems.
Mirapex belongs to a class of drugs known as dopamine agonists. These drugs have definitely been shown to trigger impulse control disorders in some people, like compulsive gambling or compulsive sexual behavior. The following links are to recent medical journal articles detailing that association. I suggest you send them to his doctor who prescribes the Mirapex and to his psychiatrist who prescribes the Effexor.
Of course, to ask your H to give up all his meds and not give him anything to deal with his symptoms would be cruel and possibly dangerous. In the best scenario, you would explore causes for his disorders, and treatments that could improve his conditions without using drugs that may affect his brain in bad ways. (BTW, People magazine at one time ran the story of a religious, upright father and husband who very uncharacteristically began compulsive gambling after starting a dopamine agonist drug).
Some thoughts for you: Restless Leg Syndrome: - restless leg syndrome may be associated with iron deficiency in some - he should be tested for this, and if his iron levels are in the lower part of the normal range, he might benefit from a brief course of iron therapy (excess iron is not good). - magnesium can be helpful with RLS. 400 mg before bedtime really helps my H. (Alcohol depletes magnesium, that might be one way alcohol aggravates RLS.) - early bedtime is helpful for RLS, since it tends to start later in the evening. My H knows that if he can get to sleep before 10 pm, he can usually beat it.
Depression: - there are many known physical causes of depression. Hypothyroidism, B vitamin deficiencies (especially folate or B12), testosterone deficiency,and traumatic brain injury are just a few causes. - there is a company called Neurosciences that does urine testing for neurotransmitters. Instead of guessing at whether serotonin, dopamine, or other neurotransmitters are low, this gives us a way to measure more directly what's going on. It's an "alternative" test - ie not mainstream yet - but the docs who use it often then use targeted amino acid therapy to try to balance neurotransmitter levels. If you go to their website, you can get them to send you a list of doctors in your area who use this type of test. - I also like a test called a FIA from Spectracell. This test measures nutritional deficiencies by looking directly at how your blood cells grow in different media with and without extra vitamins. (For instance, if you have enough B12, your cells will initially grow the same in media with and without B12. If you are B12 deficient, your cells will grow faster in the media with B12). This might help pinpoint if H is deficient in anything in particular or has a higher-than-average need for a particular nutrient. Again, this testing is still considered "alternative" by some docs, although many insurances will cover it, so don't expect your regular doc to be open to ordering it. - fish oil helps with depression, and would be healthful for him for other reasons as well.
How open is your H to seeing a different doctor? In an ideal world, he would be best served by a functional medicine doctor (see the Institute for Functional Medicine) with a background in psychiatry or neuroendocrinology. I know a great guy in Northern California. Short of that, a family physician or internist with a functional medicine bent could probably help.
At the very least - if you could get H off the Mirapex, and onto fish oil, a good multivitamin, and a sublingual B12/folate/B6 combo (they have them at Trader Joe's) that would be a start.
I sure do appreciate your response on my thread! I guess I just needed to feel more validation in regards to what I have (basically) began to figure out for myself. Well .. with the help of individuals who have personally been through their own similar (same as H) hell too ..
By the way .. I have found a lot of people that swear that Effexor "made" them drink. So, I believe that between the Mirapex and Effexor .. well, its gone beyond toxic in my H's situation.
Quote:
Ugh. Your husband's treatment reads like a pharmaceutical nightmare to me. It is an unfortunate failing of our current mainstream approach to medicine, that we rely too much on medical "band-aids" and do too little to solve the underlying causes of problems
I totally agree!!
Quote:
Mirapex belongs to a class of drugs known as dopamine agonists. These drugs have definitely been shown to trigger impulse control disorders in some people, like compulsive gambling or compulsive sexual behavior. The following links are to recent medical journal articles detailing that association. I suggest you send them to his doctor who prescribes the Mirapex and to his psychiatrist who prescribes the Effexor.
I haven't (previously) printed off any info/research from a governmental site .. just some different sites that "reinforced" the point I was trying to make to my H's pdoc. Not sure I should present his pdoc with any more info. I (back in July or August) sent a long letter (6 pages!) telling him what I realized had been going on with H. I included in that letter some "documentation" that I had found to substantiate what I was trying to tell him. H's pdoc's office called me and told me that H's pdoc wanted to meet with me. Well .. I did meet with him and was totally disappointed. He basically told me that he did not concur with me and that unless/until H got off the alcohol, he could not agree with changing any kind of meds.
I thought that was bizarre in that I totally believe that it is H's med "cocktail" that put him where he is "at" currently.
Well .. I ended up "showing up" on H's next quarterly med check appt. H was not happy about that, but did eventually agree that I could participate in his appt. During that appt. his pdoc reiterated to H that if he wanted to feel better, he must attempt to get off of the alcohol. H agreed, but as we all know, that is easier said than done. H's pdoc now added Campral to his medication cocktail .. to help him with alcohol cravings.
A couple of years ago, I asked his family doctor to run the gammut of tests on him. Nothing really showed up. I specifically asked for the Free's and thyroid antibodies and he ordered those wrong. So .. of course, to this day, not really sure where those are at. At the time, H thought I was pushing it by "requesting" his doc doing that. So, couldn't get H to go back or "rerequest" the correct tests. His mom and two sisters both have thyroid problems .. along with diabetes is in his family also. Husband maintains that being hypothyroid is a "women's" issue .. so he is not going to ask to be tested for that again.
I have added magnesium to his daily dosage of drugs, etc. 1200 mgs in the morning and 1200mgs at night before bed. He takes it with his Campral and his Mirapex and Ambien. It looks like from what you mention here that the magnesium should be upped? What are your suggestions as to the best forms of magnesium? Is there a form of magnesium that is beneficial, but not so hard on the digestive system?
Just two weeks ago, I began (also) adding krill oil to H's daily regimen. He get 1000mgs in the am and another 1000mgs in the evening. I am wondering how much "good" this might do him while he continues drinking? I have also been giving him B12 and the folate for about a month. I doubt that I would be able to get H to take anything sublingual. Is there a next best thing as far as the B vitamins that you are suggesting? He gets low dose iron (25mgs) daily also.
I have accessed the Neuroscience site and asked them to send me a list of doc's that may be close to us. I will also be checking into possible local doc's in the functional medicine area.
It will be very tough to "persuade" H to change docs. At times he thinks I am nuts because of my more holistic attitude. He thinks all Drs. are gods and rarely questions any of the drs. that he goes to. I'm not sure ..as you say, unless we (he)changes his psychiatrist, how H will get off the Mirapex.
Another aspect that I am looking into is the fact that maybe H is bipolar? That may be why antidepressants don't (never have) helped him in the past? The way he has been acting .. so terribly "irresponsible" just has me looking all over the place for a possible "diagnosis culprit"
Okay .. my post here has become way too long. Will (probably) have more to post later .. or tomorrow as you have provided me with a lot to digest.
If he's taking 1200 mgs of magnesium twice a day, that's quite a lot - i wouldn't increase it. Chelated forms like magnesium glycinate are easier on the bowels.
Pdoc sounds like a dolt - can you talk to his primary care doctor and show him the papers I linked? Maybe HE could be persuaded to talk to H and recommend a change.
Who picks up his prescriptions? If it's you, couldn't you just "forget" to pick up his Mirapex for a while? (I wouldn't stop the Effexor suddenly, even though I agree with you, it may be contributing to the problem).
With his family history, thyroid disease is definitely a possibility. Make sure his multivitamin has some iodine in it, and consider adding 200 mcg selenium, which has been shown to reduce thyroid antibodies and is a cofactor in converting T4 to T3.
I wasn't suspecting anything bad in regards to the Provigil H is on. In accessing a depression site that I have been reading this "warning" link was posted just this morning. Apparently new findings as far as Provigil:
"The company also said "psychiatric adverse experiences" including anxiety, mania, hallucinations, and suicidal thoughts have been reported in patients treated with modafinil. Cephalon said doctors should exercise caution when prescribing Provigil to patients with a history of psychosis, depression or mania."
I thought that I had gotten "recommendations" on magnesium dosages for depression from the below site. Somewhere on this huge page .. I was sure that I had read of those higher doses. But I am seeing, somewhere at the beginning, where he is only advocating 1200 total daily. (Obviously need to cut back on what I am giving him .. )
H's primary doc is a dolt too. He is the one that ordered those tests wrong. H goes to this doc only because of ease .. he is close to our home. (wrong reason to go to a doc .. I know!)
If I "forget" the mirapex, H is beside himself with the RLS symptoms. I personally wonder if it is more psychological than actually physical? I have forgotten both his ambien and mirapex (ONCE) in the past. Wow, talk about a sleepless night for both of us!
There is evidence out there that antidepressants bring on RLS. Considering the high dose of Effexor H is on .. I think that that was the initial contributing factor.
I am currently on an iodine protocol supervised by my dr. Since I began this protocol, I have had my husband on 25mgs of iodoral daily. Although I haven't seen in an improvement in his mood from this, there has been a definite improvement with his asthma symptoms. He has always (in the past) had to make several trips to the ER for breathing treatments. He has not had to make even one trip since he began on the iodine.
Oh .. that's another thing, that is not helpful in H's situation. He has asthma and uses his inhalers too much (because he smokes.) I think that the inhalers are damaging him also. (Along with the smoking of course..)
