our un-relationship

[azhira]

You don't think we should hijack 99's thread anymore??

She [and possibly you, while married?] had a major chip on her shoulder, about "never being good enough for me".

Interesting. I think you have a point here. (About me.)

I didn't used to. As a matter of fact, I used to feel like I was the most important and beautiful person in the world to him. I can trace when this started directly back to after his affair.

I wonder if I've somehow (subconsciously) set him up for failure here...?

On the other hand, I was feeling really good, very secure, in the M again just before he left this last time. (Just thinking out loud.)

Then when I said, "umm.. i'm really hungry... i need more than half a cup of soup", i get hit with NOTHING I EVER DO IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUUU!!!

Yes, I do see where I've done this in the past. Usually, it coincides with low self-esteem on my part. I've been working very hard at this exact thing the last few months. I can see where xh has gotten closer to me as I've gotten less b!tchy about stupid stuff.

It's like she deliberately gave me less than I asked for, to provoke me into complaining, so that she could then justify having a fit at me. Yet she was the one who was deliberately choosing to not meet my needs, and knowingly under-provide for me?

Did you ever get that way?

There are a couple of incidents I can recall immediately post-affair. I've been making a conscious effort to not do this precise thing. I do admit to a tendency toward being passive/aggressive, and it's something I work very hard at to catch myself doing.

[azhira]

well, when females ask questions along the lines of "do I look good in this?", males instinctively run and hide. maybe it's a side effect of that

Well, this was amazingly non-commital for him. lol His honesty is both his best and worst trait...it's something I'm working on just accepting. Usually, he really will tell me exactly how he feels! That's why I found his response earlier odd. I may have caught him off guard...but I suspect, it's really just because he's having an 'off' day.

The problem is, when he randomly volunteers it. I don't mind when we're shopping, and I ask him. I want his honest answer. It bugs when we're walking outside, talking about something else entirely, and he randomly says "Your shoes look like something a toy would wear."

[Dom R]

Huh.

I see a problem with what you describe in that last paragraph, on both sides.

His problem behaviour He's not saying it very nicely.
Some people might take a comment like that, as something funny. almost endearing. But apparently, you do not.

Your problem behaviour: you're rejecting communication from him.
Even if you choose not to act on his likes and dislikes... shouldnt you at least be interested to know what his likes and dislikes are?

He chose to communicate with you, in that instance. There could have been a variety of motivations behind what he said. for example,

- "hee hee, those shoes look funny and make me smile"
- "I dont like those shoes. i'd like you to not wear them"
- "I want to make you feel dumb, like a 'toy'"

I'm not sure how you reacted. Maybe you just silently stewed about it. Sometimes, though... a constructive reaction, can both help you feel better about what happened, AND help make future communication better.

If we can safely presume he is not deliberately trying to make you feel dumb, what do you think about responding to that sort of thing, in one of the following ways:

"[joke: beep beep i'm callie the clown!]"

"Does that mean that you dont like them?" (and then you get an opportunity to learn more about him, by asking him why, if he doesnt.

"You hurt my feelings when you say stuff like that: you make me feel like i'm stupid, for not knowing how to buy adult shoes".


BTW: there is a hidden danger, in the last one, that I betcha most people wont even realize:
If you repeatedly throw "you hurt my feelings when you say that" kind of things at him, and he really is verbally clueless... he is eventually going to feel like everything he says hurts you,and the best thing to do is just never open his mouth!
So, I think that one needs to be used sparingly. both for your sake, and for his.

I used to be in that category. My wife would complain about so many things I would say. Honestly, I can understand to some degree, when she explained it to me... but she also seemed to get into a mode where she claimed I was being deliberately hurtful.
I wasnt... i just had no idea how what I was saying, could be taken negatively. It seemed like whatever I said, she would take the most possibly negative interpretation.

So I ended up trying not to say much.


I think that when you are expecting hurt... you can find it. Similarly, when you expect "controlling behaviour"... you can find it, even when it isnt meant. and so on, and so forth.

Sometimes, it's good to point it out to the person, to give them a chance to learn (if they are interested). Other times... it's nice to just give them the benefit of the doubt.

(kinda like that conditioner incident? )


by the example you picked out, though... I'm wondering whether it is not so much that you disliked his commenting about your clothes... but HOW he commented on your clothes.
I think that would put things in a different perspective.

If he always commented that poorly... maybe it's not so much that you arent willing to go along with him on clothes, but that you associate his clothing comments with negativity, so now you just automatically want to reject any and all clothing comments from him.

Next time he makes a "rude" comment, if that is his normal behaviour... you might try bringing that up with him directly.
ie: "I'm interested in what you think about my clothes, but you could at least be nice about the way you say things?"

[azhira]

Some people might take a comment like that, as something funny. almost endearing. But apparently, you do not.

I actually used to. sigh It's not like this is a new trait of his. I married him knowing that about him. What's changed is my reaction to it. (Which suggests I need to figure out how to change back.)

Your problem behaviour: you're rejecting communication from him.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Good point.

"You hurt my feelings when you say stuff like that: you make me feel like i'm stupid, for not knowing how to buy adult shoes".

I've tried that. Doesn't work. Usually I just ignore his comment. Been trying to let go of that kind of stuff. As I said before...he's always been like this. My being upset by it is the new piece.

BTW: there is a hidden danger, in the last one, that I betcha most people wont even realize:
If you repeatedly throw "you hurt my feelings when you say that" kind of things at him, and he really is verbally clueless... he is eventually going to feel like everything he says hurts you,and the best thing to do is just never open his mouth!

Wow, light bulb! lol He has said as much before.

It's not that I don't want his opinion. I value it more than anyone's. (Yes, even now. He knows me better than anyone else.) I'm just not sure how to get him to share it in a better way. Of course, I am working on my own end.

but HOW he commented on your clothes.

Yes, exactly.

[quote](kinda like that conditioner incident? )[\quote]

Oh, yeah, no, he really was in jerk/idiot mode at that point. He knew it at the time, too. He had moved ahead of me to AZ, and been by himself for two months when I moved here. He wasn't used to living with me. xh has issues with feeling, um, invaded is the word he uses. When he does, his defense is to turn into a jerk. We had both discussed my moving out to give him some breathing space--not a separation, just separate living arrangements. I didn't, because he was suddenly out of a job. (Long story.) He eventually unwound.

xh has a history of childhood abuse--PTSD and anger issues go along with that. There were times I thought I was doing the misremembering thing about his anger, until I would see a flash of it again. In defense of xh, while he has been distant and grumpy during this last separation and our divorce, he never flipped the @$$hole switch like he did a few years ago. (And believe me, it was vile.) A lot of his anger dissolved last year, after he began actually facing his issues. He even told me he was surprised by how angry he used to be all the time.

Just some more background. He's not a bad guy...just a lot of trauma, and lots of times I have been the unintentional target.

[Dom R]

It's not that I don't want his opinion. I value it more than anyone's. (Yes, even now. He knows me better than anyone else.) I'm just not sure how to get him to share it in a better way. Of course, I am working on my own end.

as I often say: "Men are dumb", when it comes to this sort of stuff
We dont usually do well with subtleties, or vague references to methods of talking. We need specific examples

when you talk to him, you will probably reach him the best, by using very, very specific references.

in other words, saying only "you hurt my feelings when you say that", to a guy, can be felt as nothing more than an attack, if he doesnt know how to FIX it.
It might help if, along with the "it hurts me when you talk like that", you add in a very specific "but if you put it like [this], i dont mind"

[azhira]

It might help if, along with the "it hurts me when you talk like that", you add in a very specific "but if you put it like [this], i dont mind"

Hm. Will have to try that. Depending on his mood (and the day), he's pretty open to convos on self-improvement.

May be awhile before I try that. He's been in a funk the last couple days, and been touchier because of it. No big deal, just grumpier. Had a not-so-fun history-rehashing last night. Ah, well...he needed to talk, and I understand that.

In general, tho, we do fight much better than we used to. It's less intense, more productive. Some validating on both sides. If we can't find a good mutual resolution, often the issue is just dropped.

[Dom R]

Wow.. sounds like you guys are doing great resolving husband&wife issues.
Umm, waitaminit...

[azhira]

lol

We're closer to being in a R than not. (Does that make sense?)

I guess after having done the DB thing before, busted the D back then, and going through it all again...I got kind of fed up with the cycle. My goal isn't necessarily to reconcile with xh--although that would be nice. I'm really just trying to understand my own self-esteem issues (his affair-related and otherwise) as well as work on my communication skills.

I'm long since over "If I say one wrong word, will he run the opposite direction??" I decided that if one "bad" convo was enough to make him run away for good...well, then, he's just a coward! No, I'm kidding. What I really mean is, I'm less afraid of making mistakes.

Another incidental thing is, I've stopped tracking all the ups and downs. Before, I journaled our daily interactions. Was he moving closer? Running away? It'll make your head spin! lol So, I'm no longer bothering to look at things at that granular of a level. Just sort of looking back at how we interacted six months ago, a year ago, and examining sticking spots now.

Are we moving closer? Yes. Am I holding my breath anymore? No.

But, life is pretty good.

[azhira]

So I have this asinine tendency to not believe anything nice he does. (Hm, does that sound familiar? I feel like a fish, flip-flopping which side of this thing I'm on...) I keep thinking he's going to revert to mean-nasty-guy, and I have to fight myself from getting snippy and grumpy with him.

He's inched a little closer the last few days. I really want to turn, run, and be mean. sigh The thing is...he's been consistently nice for the last year now. (You know, with normal-person fits in there.) Ugh.

Mostly, I noticed a new bout of wishy-washyness on my end when he gets a little closer.

So, last night xh actually snuggled up to me on the couch. (!!) It's been months since he's tried that... I think our lousy R talk from a couple of nights back must have released some pent up angst in him, because he's been sweeter ever since. Been offering more tidbits about what he's up to on a daily basis.

Oh...found out something interesting yesterday...

xh, as I've mentioned, had this really bad habit of allowing himself to be sidetracked by women in general. (The whole ego-boost for low-self-esteem thing.) Anyway, I already knew he tended to go this gay club with his friends. (Two FF's, one gay MF.) I just assumed it was because of the content of the group...you know, less hassle for the women, more interest for the gay MF. Anyway, so yesterday, xh told me if he hangs out at gay clubs, he is much less distracted/tempted by women. Said it was one of the tips he picked up from the group counseling last year. Huh, who'd have thought...

He also mentioned something else interesting the other day. He was complaining about how many young women seem to 'notice' him on campus. He was complaining about how it bothered him. His first reason, was he said something to the effect of: "I'm not as good looking as you guys say I am." (Self-image issues, clearly, which I already knew.) His next comment was more telling. I can't recall exactly how he said it, but it was something to the effect of: "I know you've said you don't want to date someone who gets a lot of attention." I fumbled through a "It would also depend on how they handle it," but was pretty startle by his response. I'm getting a clearer idea of what may be holding him back...

[DaveJ]

To me that's an issue of trust. Different type of trust compare to fidelity but trust no less. i.e. my W doesn't believe that I love her for all of her now and really thinks she looks amazing. It gets pretty frustrating. But it comes down to whether one trusts the other person as genuine and honest about their intentions when for a long time they've done perhaps the opposite.... I guess the trust is build with consistent action over time.... As you said, he's been consistent for over a year now. So that's pointing to a more permanent behavior change rather than short term adjustment.... I just wish my W is more self aware as you are about how you are feeling and recognize that it's not him doing bad things but it's you sometimes that's pulling away.