impossible situation #2

[catfan]

OK gotcha. The good there which you probably know is you know exactly where she stands when you do any pushing. So that tells you a lot right there. So step on back again. One thing, although I haven't read every post, did you try not being nice to her yet?

[Dom R]

catfan... you have a lot of catching up to do

I have been consistantly nice to her, and positive, and open, and offering to engage with her in doing stuff. Sometimes, that has had positive results.

But prior to this, I dont have "a thread", so it's understandable you dont know what's oging on. i've just made sporadic comments in other peoples threads here and there.
I dont really intend to start one. I was really looking to just get specific feedback, on the specific issue that I started this thread on.

[hiscott]

Dom R,

That sounds reasonable to me. But, I wouldnt be surprised if W took that as being controlling or manipulative. If your W is like mine, she has an amazingly low tolerance for what you say. I cant win. Even in issues dealing with the kids, let her take the lead.

[catfan]

Dom you might want to check out the book The 5 Languages of Apology by Gary Chapman. This might help you gain some direction or at least a better understand with regards to any apologies you make.

[Dom R]

yeah, i heard about that on the radio once.
It doesnt help, for someone who fundamentally refuses to forgive.
The five are:

"express regret, accept responsability, make restitution, repentance (not wanting to do it again), and asking for forgiveness".

I automatically express regret, take responsability, say I wont do it again(if I fully understand the area of my mistake), and sometimes ask for forgiveness.
as mentioned elsewhere: she never responds to a request for forgiveness. neither does she allow for any "making restitution".
She will accept me doing stuff for her. But she will never say, "ok, thank you. that makes me feel better. i forgive you".

Seems like she basically wont forgive anything. ever.

(possibly because it makes her feel more powerful over me; she can use it as emotional blackmail against me, if she refuses to forgive it. If she forgives, then she loses the ability to drag it out again, months, or years, in the future.)

I cannot think of a single instance, in knowing her for 14+ years, where she has said "I forgive you".
Me asking for it, has sometimes cooled her off a bit. but I dont remmeber her ever saying, "ok. i forgive you".

Seems like it's almost impossible to have a relationship with someone like that, that wont eventually go downhill, under the accumilated weight of past "transgressions".
Unless you are someone who is perfect, and never makes mistakes?

meanwhile, i have lost count of the times I have forgiven her for things.
And if I ever ask HER for restitution... she refuses. with an attitude that shows just how sorry.. or rather, NOT sorry.. she is about it. ugh.

[mkultra]

Ya know... if I were a different person.. who didnt give a damn about what is good for my children, and didnt give a damn about the sanctity of marriage... yeah. I'd be out of here. A long time ago.
I've looked around, and I know that there are a LOT of women, who DO care about honesty, marriage, and would be a whole lot easier to have a positive, enjoyable relationship with.

But.. I do care about those things.
Any one of those things, would in theory be enough to make me keep trying.

Dom, these are the reasons why we all love you on this forum and I know how you feel about the d word, no not that d word.....d...a...t... you know, but I truly believe that if you just went out for tea with a nice person maybe of the opposite gender, no strings, quite innocent, hmmm, both parties may see that Dom may be....spit it out,MK....desirable toothers and thus this will make your W see you through the eyes of the rest of us in that you are quite a catch and she is blindly crazy for letting you go darn it!!!!!! What the rest of the world would give for a loyal good man!!! puleeeze. One D word can bust the other d word. It will at least jolt her into seeing a 180!! And do not say you are using someone else to make her jealous. Think of it as seeing what it is like for fun, GAL. That person can actually know you are trying to save your marriage and are just going out as friends. whatever. or not. people still like to eat right? Don't you think you are worth one date ? With a friend?

[Dom R]

actually, i was almost introduced to someone, by a friend.

I had previously toyed with the idea of seeing what it was like to go on a date. I know there are "nice" women out there, and was thinking it would be refreshing to have some positive attention for me. So it was a little daydream of mine for a while.
But then I got surprised by this offer. When faced with the reality... frankly, i got nauseous.
When it all came down to it: I'm married. I dont "date" other women.
and probably even if she divorces me, I probably wouldnt be able to bring myself to go on a date for quite a while.

Similar to all the reasons I posted above: among other things, it almost feels like I'm cheating on my children, to be dating someone other than their mother.

One of my children phoned her and asked if she would invite me over for the 5 of us to play. He told me, that she said that we would do something this weekend together. Only trouble is, he sometimes gets information like that wrong. But I'm hoping that it was accurate, and we can do something nice as a family again for one day this weekend.

[FLTC]

Dom,

Your killin' me man...it's like I'm looking into a mirror. If you ever have the patience, scroll through some of my old theads. It is unreasonable, undifferentiated anger. It is whack-a-mole...you thing the issue is solved and it just comes out differently. Don't expect this to change. I'm sorry about that, but she probably was angry long before she knew you...about something or many things. My W. once told a counsleor we saw in 2003: "I saw Dr. Phil on Oprah, and he asked "Would you rather be right or happy?" She said "I can't tell the difference" It is beyond frustrating. I haven't gotten a sorry in 20 years either, and you know what...it takes its toll...We become almost "Abused spouses". Sooner or later, if they don't actually take a hard look in the mirror, we have to ask ourselves: "Is this what I really want for the rest of my life?" It is a "Catch 22" I don't want my angry, vitriolic unforgiving unrepentent wife back, but that may not change.

How old are your kids? My 17 year old said to me on the phone the other night: "You need to see the upside of divorce, Dad. If mom is happy, we're all happy, because the whole family feeds off of Mom's emotions" They know she's a powder keg. Your kids may not see it if they're younger, but my 14 and 17 year old do.

[Dom R]

Yup, i know what you mean. Yet of course, they are the ones who accuse us of abusing and mistreating THEM.

"If mom is happy, we're all happy, because the whole family feeds off of Mom's emotions"

Yup. There's a saying, that actually gets "joked" about in her family, about "if momma aint happy, aint nobody happy".
(about HER mother, and grandmother, ironically)
To me, that is a sign of a selfish mother.
Parents should be examples of how to triumph over personal difficulties, and still continue to be nice to people they care about, reguardless of whether they had a "bad day" or not.
Not examples of self centeredness.

"happily"(?) our children are 6. I try to console myself with the thought that if we can work things out over the next few years, they could still have a large chunk of positive, stable, happy childhood, when it is highly critical, and they will remember it more. (10-18)
That's one of my Big Goals, when I get discouraged: to keep trying to build that for them.

[Gingersnap]

I agree....that whole "if momma ain't happy" has always rubbed me the wrong way. Selfish and crude.

Dom...I hear you on the lack of forgiveness. My H has actually said to me "I never forgive anyone for anything. It's just how I am" nice, huh? He's just got this big old heart that is 99% more fragile than the rest of the population (so he says) and it can't take being hurt. So he refuses to forgive.

I do believe forgiveness is critical in any healthy R. I don't know how to get it from someone, except by offering it freely. The Bible says He who is forgiven little loves little...in other words we have to have forgiveness for love.