Hardly faking it anymore: Puddle's third thread

[Heimlich]

So it looks like the big question is: What am I going to do afterward?!

Have another drink.

One of the funniest ads I've ever seen was labeled "cranial-rectal inversion" and it was a photoshop of a guy in suit/slacks with his head, literally, up his buttocks. Which reminds me, need to make another copy of that. Always good for a giggle.

BD

[Not Much Left]

Really? Isnt the big question "what am I going to wear?" That is always the big question isnt it, if you look good, you feel good, and the rest will take care of itself? OK, way oversimplified but heck, gotta start somewhere on this new adventure, might as well be in some Seven Jeans and a BCGB shirt with a nice pair of flats? Wow that is gay!

I once saw a guy fighting w/ his girlfriend in line to get into a bar, she is just beating on him (verbally) and he turns to me and says, sometimes, I wish I were gay! No clue why I just went there.

Have fun Puddle, smile, and be witty?

C

[Heimlich]

Going to start calling you "Metro", CVA

[Not Much Left]

About 6 mos ago I would have said OK to that, but apparently "metro" is definitely not thought of well these days.

cant think of an alternative. Go for it.

[Puddle]

Ha! CVA, I'm not sure what I'm going to wear, but since I don't have anything you mentioned, not that. Smile and be witty---good thinking.

I've been mulling over whether to come clean to this guy about why I haven't been around the hangout, just in case he says, "Hey, I had drinks with Puddle!" and H and possibly COW are sitting there. Now I'm thinking maybe H is the person to tell; I'd hate for him to hear that from someone else.

I just got a timely email from COW, saying we're not a hot gossip item, she hasn't said anything (though a few people know), everyone's asking about me, she'd like to see me and hopes it wouldn't be awkward for me. She's still sad about the whole thing.

I'd just been thinking about her, thinking poor kid! The last thing that girl needs is another bunch of screwed-up friends.

I wrote back, said thanks for the discretion and the reassurances, that I wouldn't mind seeing her, glad H has a friend. Told her I'm thinking about making an appearance.

This feels way too much like high school. Thoughts?

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle. Getting caught up on your thread, ok?

When he returned, he told me the time's not working for him, he needs all the evenings this week. Can't phone for apartments with the kids around. I thought for a split second and said, "Okay."

Wish now I'd said, "That sounds rough. Let me think about it" or "That sounds rough. Would you like to get a sitter for one of your nights?"

Truth is he was so tightly wound and so clearly unhappy/angry/whatever that I was a bit intimidated and didn't want to start a fight. Talked to friend; friend says 1) I'm letting him walk on me, 2) This is setting a precedent, and 3) He (friend) thinks this is going to get ugly. Scary stuff.

H will have to understand that once you guys work out a solution on custody (for a D or maybe now for a S), he will have his responsibilities that he will have to handle. He can ask for your help (and if I were you I'd want him to because they are your kids), but if you can't, he has to deal. No pissing and crying. Welcome to the reality of S/D.

Then in the second message clarified that since COW doesn't fit into the category of someone he's dating or interested in, but is rather a very dear friend who's not going anywhere soon, that it's moot; said he's glad we agree on keeping the kids away from romantic entanglements. Added a snarky, "Lucky for you..." there's no way they could hang out until after the talk anyway.

So there you go: H claims no romantic interest in COW. I'll have to take his word for it. We'll see what C says.

He's clearly stated his position. I'd accept it and move on. If it turns out he's lied about COW, he have to live/deal with it. Focus on you.

He's beautiful, sweet, and fun to talk to.

Beautiful, huh? Description please.

By the way, the "cool conversation" was about whether or not it's okay to sleep with someone who's married, as he'd had a big come-on from a married woman (and had declined).

What positions did you take? Has your's changed?

Friend said it's good to be clear on your reasons, and go for it.

It's good to thik clearly no matter what.

Friend also said I don't have to consider it a date for it to be a date.

Not sure I understand that. I recommend honesty and disclosure with this guy.

This is a scary change for me, and part of me wants to point out the impact so far---no remodel, may have to sell the house, may have to put the kids in school to work, etc---and tell him this change in attitude makes me anxious.

Bad idea? Just keep my mouth shut and deal with it through mediation? Help.

A preliminary thought on this: you can have all the conversations you want with H on this topic, and you can extract promises/commitments that hopefully he will live up to, but until you two reduce something to writing like a mediation agreement or a divorce decree (with Court approval), it won't matter and he can always change his mind. So, my point is, the peace of mind you are hoping to get from any convos is only as good as your H's willingness to honor anything coming out of those convos.

Given the content of your conversation, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he's definately interested in you. If he was interested in you while you were married . . .

...then he might still be interested? Is that where you're going? And yeah, reflecting on that conversation is what finally caused a light bulb to go off in my thick head.

I think he is almost certainly interested. Has he been married? Does he have kids? If not, get ready for your new trickiness to dating. How old is he? How mature? Not that you shouldn't be worried, but this guy may not have considered what a R with you would really look like (not that your're going there yet), so if and when it gets to that point be ready to watch (or help) him stumble through it.

Get your separation agreement in place first....Then, if you want to go for a beer/coffee with the guy, go ahead.

So you're saying it'd be a date, even if he's the only one who might be looking for something? (That was my friend's position: only one person has to be interested for it to be a date.)

Oh, now I see her/his point. I don't think it's a date if you're open and honest with him. If he hears the right words, but still is interested, well he's a big boy and can choose to enter that situation.

Regardless, though H is clearly open to dating (and told me early on he'd know I'm okay when I start dating), you still think I need a legal doc in place before I have coffee with the guy?

FWIW, I don't.

especially since COW's psycho ex announced to everyone that COW and H were having an affair before H ever dropped the bomb, but then again he also said COW and *I* were having an affair).

Even though the part about you was flawed, still very interesting.

I haven't been back since H dropped the bomb. I've assumed that everyone knows far more about my sitch than I'd care to share, and to be honest, my pride won't let me go.

Lately I've been thinking that for the sake of humility---Homer's "why not me?"---I might go back. I think I've overestimated who knows (or cares), and I feel like I've lost something---to my pride, and to H and COW---that was MINE.

And lastly, I could have a beer with this guy there without it being a date.

Thoughts?

Screw all of them. They will think what they want. You can't control what they think, hear, know or care. You can only control you. Handle this however YOU WANT to. Focus on you!

What I'm thinking is some good convo and a bit of an ego boost.

I like it.

I've a call in to my acquaintance the family court judge.

Excellent! Ask him if there is any risk to you dating. Is there fault-based D there?

H and I obviously haven't been talking very much, but losing his job isn't something I was aware I might need to be concerned about. I just feel like he's falling apart. He just got a huge promotion, they love him, but his new "I'll just say what I think and if they don't like it they can f**k themselves" might end up hurting me in a way I hadn't anticipated.

Is he MLC? Have you considered that?

I realized something. H was all about "being adult" about all this, didn't want the kids to sense my ambivalence about the S, etc etc, but his behavior toward me has been horrendous in a silent way. Again, something I wish I could point out in a nonemotional way, like, "Hey, do you have the impression the kids have noticed that you haven't spoken to me in weeks? Do you think that might have a negative impact on them?"

You could try it. To me, normal DB rules don't apply as strongly when the kids' interests are at issue. Would be better to raise it with the CP you're going to talk to, I think.

Hee hee. I don't know. Back in the day I was a pretty free-wheelin' gal.

Please provide some specific examples.

Funny that both Heim & Nomo have both dated & both think you're not ready, & I, who usually says no, says yes. Interesting!

Ooh, that is interesting. Let me know when you figure it out! Anything to say about that, Heim and Nomo? Purely a matter of you guys having had more time?

See above. Yes, though, time is an issue. You're newbie still, technically at least.

I have the impression that H is utterly self-absorbed right now

Gee, you think????

Nomo, re dating: gotcha. [. . . ] I was thinking today, what do you do if your friend admits to becoming more attached than she intended to?

Oh, she's pretty smitten (so she says). Though I don't think more than she "intended." But what do i do? Nothing different. What am I missing? We've been honest about our respective sitches, and even discussed these types of points specifically more than once. So, like I've said, we're both eyes wide open about the complications and the risks.

would you want H to be dating now?

But he is. He's letting go, focusing on what he wants, moving forward. Puddle can do the same (focus on her, what she wants, let go of the M, etc.), whenever she's ready.

Just had a friendly talk with H, during which we agreed that we don't want the D to be nasty, we want to work together, neither wants to see the other screwed, etc---generally very positive stuff.

Good stuff. Sorry you are/were sad. To be expected. ((((Puddle))))

H told me his father shared his experience about his own D (from H's mom, one very, very mentally ill woman) and expressed concern that H not screw himself in the same way.

Just hearing that FIL would possibly compare me with H's mom made me cry.

Don't take this personally. It's really not about you. Just FIL, drawing on his own experience, to try to help his extremely confused son.

H reassured me that his job's not in danger, that he's committed to homeschooling the kids as long as it's working for the three of us, that there's no rush to sell the house, etc.

Excellent.

I didn't realize he was on depression meds too. this just seems more of a problem with his own love of himself, and security in himself... and part mlc too.. I wouldn't be shocked to find that a year or two from now...if in fact the whole D thing does go thru that he discovers that leaving you didn't make him happy after all and that he made the biggest mistake of his life.

I agree! Well said, ST.

I'm more nervous about the question, "So why haven't you been around?" than losing control and doing something I regret.

Try - "I've been busy."

Today he sent me an email saying many kind things, including that that was the most honest conversation we've had in a long time and it "means a lot" that I was willing to be vulnerable. Hey, one long-ago, half-forgotten goal met!

Well that's good. There are some positives in your sitch to build a healthy R going forward, if not to save your M. So, it could be worse.

I'm feeling a lot better today. Other things H said in his email: he's committed to a fair and peaceful split; he's committed to supporting us so I won't have to work (?); he's committed to being honest; and he trusts me.

Good.

He also apologized again for being so grumpy, said it wasn't directed at me but I must have felt it; said he's working hard at getting his head out of his a$$ (says he'll need forceps, it's lodged in there so well).

Maybe I could be of some assitance.

OK, so I can see you tonight having a drink, what I wouldnt give to be a fly on the wall

I'd rather be the guy across the table.

I've been mulling over whether to come clean to this guy about why I haven't been around the hangout, just in case he says, "Hey, I had drinks with Puddle!" and H and possibly COW are sitting there. Now I'm thinking maybe H is the person to tell; I'd hate for him to hear that from someone else.

I wouldn't tell H. None of his business about the particulars, right? He wants to date, and wants you to date. That's all he needs to know, IMO. But I would tell this guy, if you have any interest in him or if he expresses any in you, that you and H are separating/divorcing (whatever is true). You could also tell him it's not public really, to your knowledge, and you'd appreciate it if he didn't spread it around yet. Just my thoughts.

I just got a timely email from COW, saying we're not a hot gossip item, she hasn't said anything (though a few people know), everyone's asking about me, she'd like to see me and hopes it wouldn't be awkward for me. She's still sad about the whole thing.

I'd just been thinking about her, thinking poor kid! The last thing that girl needs is another bunch of screwed-up friends.

I wrote back, said thanks for the discretion and the reassurances, that I wouldn't mind seeing her, glad H has a friend. Told her I'm thinking about making an appearance.

This feels way too much like high school. Thoughts?

Doesn't sound too bad. As always, FOCUS ON YOU AND WHAT YOU WANT. REALLY. WHAT DO YOU WANT VIS A VIS COW???? TONIGHT??? THE OTHER GUY???

Puddle, this focusing on you is the KEY. I don't sense you have that going on yet as much as you will. The faster you get there, the better.

Good luck, and keep up the good work,
Nomo

[Puddle]

Hey Nomo,

Getting caught up on your thread, ok?

Happy to hear your thoughts, always.

H will have to understand that once you guys work out a solution on custody (for a D or maybe now for a S), he will have his responsibilities that he will have to handle. He can ask for your help (and if I were you I'd want him to because they are your kids), but if you can't, he has to deal. No pissing and crying. Welcome to the reality of S/D.

Yes, I agree with this. Considering his request (more like a statement) came after long days of silent hostility, I was concerned about being a doormat. But I do want to be the person who's there for the kids, if I can, when he can't. The reality of custody, whatever it's going to be (and right now I'd guess it's going to be almost all me with liberal visitation for him, but that's right now and neither here nor there), hasn't affected him yet. My sister jokingly suggest I push for 75% for him and 25% for me because it would freak him out. Of course I'd never do that.

He's clearly stated his position. I'd accept it and move on. If it turns out he's lied about COW, he have to live/deal with it. Focus on you.

I don't feel like I'm unduly focussed (or much at all focussed) on COW and H or H and anyone else. This arose purely in regard to the upcoming C appt and if/when to introduce romantic interests to the kids. I wasn't interested in clarity other than in regard to that, I think. The focus there was the kids.

Beautiful, huh? Description please.

6'4" (yeah, I know), wavy sandy blond hair, blond beard, blue eyes---looks like a lumberjack. Actually not my ideal physical type (coloring-wise), but darned handsome nonetheless.

By the way, the "cool conversation" was about whether or not it's okay to sleep with someone who's married, as he'd had a big come-on from a married woman (and had declined).

What positions did you take? Has your's changed?

I was amazed that he'd need to consult with friends (which he did) to figure out what to do. I asked only, "Is it okay with you?" Actually, I remember thinking he was kind of a dork after that. But no, my position of "what's okay with you?" hasn't changed. I was far less interested in whether or not it was okay with the woman and what her H might have thought.

So, my point is, the peace of mind you are hoping to get from any convos is only as good as your H's willingness to honor anything coming out of those convos.

This is an excellent point, thanks. And you're right: reassurances aren't worth the email they're written on.

I think he is almost certainly interested.

I'm actually not convinced (especially after his "I can squeeze you in for an hour" comment). He did say something about the dreaded "connection" he felt talking to me, but also said he felt a bit of that with a guy from the hangout. I think it's probably more friendly than romantic, and that's fine.

Has he been married? Does he have kids? If not, get ready for your new trickiness to dating. How old is he? How mature?

He's been married, for a green card only. No kids. He's 38, if I remember correctly. Maturity? Not sure.

Not that you shouldn't be worried, but this guy may not have considered what a R with you would really look like (not that your're going there yet), so if and when it gets to that point be ready to watch (or help) him stumble through it.

I have absolutely no intention of getting involved in a romantic R right now, though I'm not blind to the fact that it's a possibility. It's a long way down the line yet, though, I'm fairly confident.

I don't think it's a date if you're open and honest with him. If he hears the right words, but still is interested, well he's a big boy and can choose to enter that situation

What exactly would the right words be?

Even though the part about you was flawed, still very interesting.

Yeah, unfortunately true. H was behaving in a way that I considered inappropriate with COW (and my calling him on that was what finally led him to drop the bomb), and her ex saw it, too. The thing is, he had cried wolf so many times---as far as he was concerned, she was sleeping with everyone, regardless of gender or sexual orientation---and himself is clearly an alcoholic, so no one paid much attention.

But yes, in this case there was some truth to it. It's another one of the things that I found humiliating (or rather, my reaction to his accusations---righteous indignation---caused me some humiliation later) that caused me to put distance between myself and the place.

Screw all of them. They will think what they want. You can't control what they think, hear, know or care. You can only control you. Handle this however YOU WANT to. Focus on you

Yes, on me. That's the part I'm dealing with---getting over *myself* and getting back there. I know it's all me.

Excellent! Ask him if there is any risk to you dating. Is there fault-based D there?

I'm pretty sure we're all no-fault out here in CA. I'll ask her, though I think she's out of town right now.

Is he MLC? Have you considered that?

I thought about that a bit, especially at the beginning, but quickly decided it didn't really matter. Wondering about that just caused me to spend time analyzing him, wondering what he's thinking here or there, and I gave it up. He may well be.

You could try it. To me, normal DB rules don't apply as strongly when the kids' interests are at issue. Would be better to raise it with the CP you're going to talk to, I think.

I'm feeling a lot better about that part since our talk last night. I think the kids (or the 7-year-old, anyway) have noticed already, so the damage there is done. I may mention it tomorrow at the appt, though, so we don't fall into that pattern again.

Hee hee. I don't know. Back in the day I was a pretty free-wheelin' gal.

Please provide some specific examples.

LOL! Um, no thanks. I can't believe a lawyer is encouraging me to disclose specifics about my checkered past in a public forum with a D looming!

You're newbie still, technically at least.

Oh, I know it, though I'm finding myself less and less able to relate to the first stages I read about here. I think that's forward motion.

Oh, she's pretty smitten (so she says).

I have no doubt.

Though I don't think more than she "intended." But what do i do? Nothing different. What am I missing? We've been honest about our respective sitches, and even discussed these types of points specifically more than once. So, like I've said, we're both eyes wide open about the complications and the risks.

This sounds reasonable. Does she have kids? Any intention of ever introducing her to yours?

Good stuff. Sorry you are/were sad. To be expected. ((((Puddle))))

Thanks. It was okay, though, and seemed to put H in a place where he can be better-disposed toward me. Or maybe it was something completely different---who knows.

Don't take this personally. It's really not about you. Just FIL, drawing on his own experience, to try to help his extremely confused son.

Yeah, I totally get this. He's very worried about his son, as I would be if it were mine.

I'm more nervous about the question, "So why haven't you been around?" than losing control and doing something I regret.

Try - "I've been busy

Yeah, but...

There are some positives in your sitch to build a healthy R going forward, if not to save your M. So, it could be worse.

I agree wholeheartedly. We'll be okay, whatever happens.

said he's working hard at getting his head out of his a$$ (says he'll need forceps, it's lodged in there so well).

Maybe I could be of some assitance.

Shall I offer your help?

OK, so I can see you tonight having a drink, what I wouldnt give to be a fly on the wall

I'd rather be the guy across the table.

I wouldn't tell H. None of his business about the particulars, right? He wants to date, and wants you to date. That's all he needs to know, IMO.

I agree, which is why I'd feel bad if this guy unwittingly gave H particulars, and at the same time set himself up for some weirdness at the place without having any idea what's going on.

But I would tell this guy, if you have any interest in him or if he expresses any in you, that you and H are separating/divorcing (whatever is true).

We'll see how the conversation goes, but considering this is a pretty big part of what's been going on in my life, I may very well tell him, even if it turns out to be just a friendship.

You could also tell him it's not public really, to your knowledge, and you'd appreciate it if he didn't spread it around yet. Just my thoughts.

I'm not worried about him talking about the S/D, just that he knows since some people do know about the S/D, announcing we went out might cause some awkwardness, for him, H, maybe even COW. Maybe me.

Doesn't sound too bad.

*Too* bad?

As always, FOCUS ON YOU AND WHAT YOU WANT. REALLY. WHAT DO YOU WANT VIS A VIS COW????

Funny you mention that. I was just thinking I'd like to be friendly with her, but I'm concerned that might be awkward for *H.* So okay, yes, I need to focus more on me!

TONIGHT??? THE OTHER GUY???

Ugh. I want to have fun. I want to talk to an attractive guy who doesn't clearly Not. Want. To. Be. With. Me. I want to flirt a little. How's that?

Puddle, this focusing on you is the KEY. I don't sense you have that going on yet as much as you will. The faster you get there, the better.

Thanks, Nomo, you're absolutely right. I have to stop worrying about H and whether or not he'll be okay, about the ILs and how they're hurting, about what other people might possibly think/say and what they know or don't. Me me me me me me me. Mememememememe. Thanks.

Have you realized, Nomo, how many posts you have? Wow.

Take care.

[new_attitude]

Hi Puddle,
I just found the new thread and wanted to jump in and say hey. One quick comment for now...

Is he MLC? Have you considered that?

I thought about that a bit, especially at the beginning, but quickly decided it didn't really matter. Wondering about that just caused me to spend time analyzing him, wondering what he's thinking here or there, and I gave it up. He may well be.

I know you told me the same thing earlier about mlc not mattering, but reading up on mlc has enabled me to step back a bit from the insanity and realize that h's decisions of late could have a biological/hormonal basis. Although I'm not shifting all of the blame away from me (far from perfect wife here!), I know it's not all about me. This allows me to be a bit more sympathetic that I would have otherwise. Have you read some of the linked articles on the mlc forum?

Have fun tonight (but not too much fun!)

[Nomopo]

I think he is almost certainly interested.

I'm actually not convinced (especially after his "I can squeeze you in for an hour" comment).

Maybe he is DBing you.

I don't think it's a date if you're open and honest with him. If he hears the right words, but still is interested, well he's a big boy and can choose to enter that situation

What exactly would the right words be?

Something like this: "I'm married, but we're heading towards a S/D. I have kids. It's all pretty recent, so I am not rushing into anything, and I wanted you to know my sitch. I like spending time with you, and would like to spend more with you, but I have no intention of getting into a R or even dating any time soon. I don't know for sure how this will all turn out. My H says he's done, finished, and he plans to move out soon, and file for D. [At some point, whe appropriate if dating begins or a R develops, and if it's true] I don't know what I would do if H changed his mind and decided he would want to work on the R." That was free flow, but should get you started.

Hee hee. I don't know. Back in the day I was a pretty free-wheelin' gal.

Please provide some specific examples.

LOL! Um, no thanks. I can't believe a lawyer is encouraging me to disclose specifics about my checkered past in a public forum with a D looming!

But I'm not your lawyer, and this is all anonymous. Can't we all just have some fun around here for crying out loud???

You're newbie still, technically at least.

Oh, I know it, though I'm finding myself less and less able to relate to the first stages I read about here. I think that's forward motion.

Yep, it's progress. You're a quick study.

Does she have kids? Any intention of ever introducing her to yours?

No, she doesn't, and she had a bad experience with her step kids rejecting her. And know, I wouldn't introduce them until W and I were D'd.

said he's working hard at getting his head out of his a$$ (says he'll need forceps, it's lodged in there so well).

Maybe I could be of some assitance.

Shall I offer your help?

I'd love it.

OK, so I can see you tonight having a drink, what I wouldnt give to be a fly on the wall

I'd rather be the guy across the table.

What?!?!?!?! Now I'm a stalker?!?!?!?! Just having some fun!

I wouldn't tell H. None of his business about the particulars, right? He wants to date, and wants you to date. That's all he needs to know, IMO.

I agree, which is why I'd feel bad if this guy unwittingly gave H particulars, and at the same time set himself up for some weirdness at the place without having any idea what's going on.

What particulars? "Hey, H, I saw Puddle at the hangout. We had beers, and chatted. Sorry you guys are getting D'd." And, maybe, "Mind if I kiss her?" Sorry - couldn't resist.

Doesn't sound too bad.

*Too* bad?

Meaning not too High School.

Ugh. I want to have fun. I want to talk to an attractive guy who doesn't clearly Not. Want. To. Be. With. Me. I want to flirt a little. How's that?

Makes perfect sense. Been there; done that. And for those very same reasons!!

Have you realized, Nomo, how many posts you have? Wow.

Uh, yeah. You should have seen me around here before I slowed down. And I have really slowed down. First month - 1000 posts!!! :0 Second month - 600. Slowed down more and more since then.

Take care.

You too Puddle. We'll be looking forward to the date report tonight!

Hugs,
Nomo

[Puddle]

Hey NA! Nice to hear from you.

I haven't read the articles, but perhaps I will. I feel like I'm pretty sympathetic toward H (though less when he was being such a dolt, I admit), while recognizing he's responsible for the choices he's making. A hormonal element? Maybe.

Actually, I feel like that might make me ever so slightly more willing to consider working on things, were H ever to make that move. But for now, we're in full-on S mode. I'll bear it in mind, though, thanks.

Have fun tonight (but not too much fun!)

Just enough fun is my goal! Take care.