still trying, now separating

[Dom R]

When we talked about this and I agreed to go along with it, she immediaely relaxed.

well DUH... you've given her exactly what she wanted out of you.. of course she's going to be happier and relaxed!

As soon as we decided on this plan it's almost as if she went from being convinced the M was over to suddenly feeling like there was some hope.

Wrong. you dont know how she feels. Always remember this. It doesnt matter what she shows you on the outside.. on the inside, she may be feeling something completely different

I dont think you know how she really feels about your marriage at this point, and her intentions for it.

Now if I'd gone the opposite route and said no, I'm not leaving but you are free to do so if you want, where would we be? She be angry and resentful, not talking to me and looking to get out as fast as possible.

you're making assumptions again, and comparisons, that you dont actually know are valid.

She's "looking to get out" either way. The question is, are you going to make it all happy and comfy, all the way through her filing for divorce [because her life is so comfy without you, why would she ever bother coming back] ?!

She's already made her choice, she wants a separation. There are only two options, I either go along with it and make it happen with as little ugliness as possible or I resist. Telling her I won't go and if she wants to, she is free to go is resisting. Passive resisting, but resisting all the same. It's going to happen on way or another, why resist it?

it is NOT "resisting".
Wow, sounds like she's got you brainwashed very nicely
You are not in any way STOPPING her from moving out.
If you were stopping her, that would be resisting.

If I walk up to you, and say, "hello, I've decided to move. I want you to help me move". and you say "no":
Are you "resisting" me?
You are resisting my request for assistance, yes. But you are in no way preventing me from moving.



Go read BryanS's thread. He made all the same excuses you did.
They separated.
he doesnt seem to think it was such a great idea any more.

(from first post)
Her complaint is that I have been withdrawn and emotionally unavailable and she feels that I can never change and can never be what she needs,
[....]
(recent post)
How would doing this help me to get her back?

Seems like what you should be thinking about is, how is being separated, going to help you make up with her, your problems of being "unavailable and withdrawn"???

It doesnt. Something is clearly out of whack here.

[soul_mate]

Still Trying, I agree with you that you have no real choice but to separate. I would be more inclined to fight it without the house sharing arangement that you have. I am currently in a similar situation of house swapping, which by the way is good for the kids if nothing else.

My situation sounds very similar to yours with the exception that my W has said she wants a divorce, but makes no effort towards getting one.

I have the same issues W wants me to be passionate for her and to hold her on in highest regards, to be thoughful, etc. But of course will not let me do any of it, but instead thinks I can't change. I don't have an answer for this I just really don't know what to do here.

[still trying]

Seems like what you should be thinking about is, how is being separated, going to help you make up with her, your problems of being "unavailable and withdrawn"???

It doesn't. But how does staying in an awkward situation in the same house help things either? It doesn't.

I've been talking this over in therapy. My C basically said that it sounds like my W is on the fence and that I needed to do something to nudge her one way or the other. We agreed that sitting in limbo wasn't helping the situation and I am constantly battling resentment over being neglected. As much as I hate to say it, and maybe I'm just not as strong as I can be, but there is only so long I can take sitting around waiting for her to make up her mind. It's been about 4 months now and we're stagnant. My C reminded me that while I can make changes and try to draw her back to me, that unless she is actively willing to participate in the M we will get nowhere.

So when we sat down to talk I told her what I wanted. I told her I wanted to set a 2 month time limit to go to counseling and both of us to make an effort to work on the M. At the end of that time we could then assess whether we made any progress or not. She refused. The stagnant part is killing me. As much as I want to save my M I cannot do it alone and she's not willing to try.

Like I said, I don't want a separation. What I want is for us to work on the M. But that's not an option. I don't know if a S will be good for us or not. I do know that the current sitch isn't working for either of us. I try to look at it objectively and here's what I see positive about a separation.

- less pressure and stress = more open and relaxed around each other
- more me time = less stress about being taken advantage of
- I can make more progress on my issues without the constant fear of screwing up
- I kind of look forward to the freedom...
- we fell in love in a long distance R and my plan is to get back to that kind of R
- she is open to the possibility of MC in the future and she suggested going on dates
- I have a lot of plans for things I want to do with my newfound free time and that will give me a lot more to talk with her about
- She has classes during the night so has to have the kids on the weekends, which means less freedom for her without me to babysit. It's going to be a reality check for her.

In all honesty, I could be wrong, I actually think that this will get us talking MORE. Right now she's pretty much avoiding me because it's hard to be around me, and I honestly think that with the space we'll start chatting on the phone regularly. That's how we fell in love after all as we were 5 states away.

Now on the negatives?

- out of sight, out of mind (or is it absence makes the heart grow fonder)
- yes, we each could just move on with life and forget each other
- one or both of us could meet someone else and end the M
- it's hard on the kids, but easier than a custody battle

All I can say for sure is that the longer I am in the same house with her, the more indifferent I become about the outcome and the less motivated I feel to try and save the M. That can't be a good thing. If she were to come around and start to be willing to make an effort on the M, then I'd be all over it, but it doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon as she is way too wounded.

[still trying]

I have the same issues W wants me to be passionate for her and to hold her on in highest regards, to be thoughful, etc. But of course will not let me do any of it, but instead thinks I can't change. I don't have an answer for this I just really don't know what to do here.

I hear you, if you figure it out let me know It kind of makes me wonder if it's all a big test. I mean, I get the feeling that W doesn't actually want me to give up. I start to wonder what kind of big show of love she's looking for in order to feel like I do care and am passionate for her. The only thing I can think of so far is that if I don't give up maybe she'll eventually get that. I don't know.

I'm trying to psych myself up to do the approach mentioned in The Way of the Superior Man. Basically he had said that what a woman wants is to know that her man is strong enough to stand up and give her love through the midsts of her storm. That when she is angry, withdrawn and upset you should view her not as really being angry, but as in needing love.

That's the best approach I can think of. Show her that no matter what you still will give her love and in time hope she will see the sincerity and strength in that. Unfortunately it's hard on two counts. First, she's not really willing to let me show her love. I mean, I'm pretty sure if I went up and just gave her a passionate kiss she'd deck me. Yet I tend to also think that she'd secretly be pleased with it. What do I know though. I have been wondering lately if it would do any good to try to push through her defenses and touch her with passion and love, even though she tells me it's not appropriate. And DB would say that is hardcore pursuing. Yet she wants passion Anyway, that's some rambling, but the other hard part of this approach is that it's really hard to just give love and give love and stand there in the midst of her anger still loving her. I'm getting nothing in return and while I do think there is validity in unconditionally giving love, I don't know how long I can really do that...

[Dom R]

As much as I want to save my M I cannot do it alone and she's not willing to try.

It seems like you're at the "divorce busting" site, but you havent bothered to actually read the "divorce busting" books.
They are all about the possibility that one person CAN make a difference to the relationship.

Sounds like your #1 priority should be to go (re?)read DB or DR.

we fell in love in a long distance R and my plan is to get back to that kind of R

It sounds like you need help managing a REAL relationship. getting back to a fake long-distance one, wont solve your "real relationship" problems. you gotta learn something new, to do that.

Quickie comments inline:

I can make more progress on my issues without the constant fear of screwing up.
Sounds like you either need to get better control of yourself, or at minimum, just quit hanging around her. that doesnt require either of you "moving out".
I kind of look forward to the freedom...
so, basically, just being selfish, rather than working more
she is open to the possibility of MC in the future and she suggested going on dates
Dont bet the farm on that actually happening.
I have a lot of plans for things I want to do with my newfound free time and that will give me a lot more to talk with her about
There is nothing stopping you from doing all those things right now, without either of you moving out.
She has classes during the night so has to have the kids on the weekends, which means less freedom for her without me to babysit. It's going to be a reality check for her.
Reality check for her?? Here's one for you: what she has proposed, makes her life waay easier. She has the kids, and the house, when she wants them. and she doesnt have to be bothered with them when it is inconvenient for her.

a "reality check", would be for her to really bear full responsability for a real separation, and tell her, "if you want to be separated, you move out"


and something that bears highlighting by itself:

it's hard on the kids, but easier than a custody battle

WRRRRONNNG.....(is that something that "she" convinced you of?)
First off.. it's the separation that harms the kids. not the "custody battle". They dont care about "legal statuses". what they care about, is whether or not they are with BOTH mommy and daddy every day.
Secondly... You are having a "custody battle" right now. You are deciding custody.. right now.
What you do now, effectively determines custody when and if either of you file for divorce.

All I can say for sure is that the longer I am in the same house with her, the more indifferent I become about the outcome and the less motivated I feel to try and save the M.

Sounds to me, like this separation is really about you: in that you are tired of working on your marriage, and being separated, means that you wont have to work on it any more. you get to "work on yourself" and go have fun and enjoy yourself, in the guise of "getting more interesting things to talk about".

I guess this post is more aggro than my usual.
I get worked up when people post about how separation is somehow "better" for either their marriage, or their children, than staying in the same home and continuing to actually work on the marriage. 'Cause I know from direct experience from my children: it's way better to stay and work on it.

[still trying]

As much as I want to save my M I cannot do it alone and she's not willing to try.

It seems like you're at the "divorce busting" site, but you havent bothered to actually read the "divorce busting" books.
They are all about the possibility that one person CAN make a difference to the relationship.

No, you misunderstand me. I do believe that one person can make a difference. However, the difference you can do is to make changes and hope that they will choose to come back to you. You cannot fix the M alone, it requires their willing participation. DB isn't about fixing the M, it's about getting your R to a place where they are willing to work with you on fixing the M.

That's why I say that I can't do anything until W is willing to work at it. I guess I mean I can't make any progress on our R until then. I know that I can do things in the meantime that may help her decide to work on our M though.

As for your other points, who knows... I read a lot of opinions, some say that a separation can be just what a couple needs to make it and others say that it's just the path to divorce. Honestly I don't know what to think.

Again though, I don't have a choice here. We're going to separate. I have no say in that. I can only choose how I want to handle it. I only see two choices. I can tell her nope, I'm not going anywhere and if you want to leave you are free to do so, or I can go along with the shared apartment. I would greatly prefer the latter. Either way we're going to be separated, the question is do I want it to be done in the least disruptive way possible where we still share daily reminders of each other, or do I want it done with conflict and animosity and legal battles? If I refuse and tell her to go, she's either going to file for a divorce and fight for the house in court, or she'll move out and fight for custody of the kids. I don't see how that helps either of us.

As for a reality check, no she doesn't get the house and kids whenever she wants. Since she is taking night classes, the only option is for me to have custody and house M-R. Then she has to take the kids/house F-S. That doesn't leave her much free time and makes those weekend trips a lot harder.

It sounds like you need help managing a REAL relationship. getting back to a fake long-distance one, wont solve your "real relationship" problems. you gotta learn something new, to do that.

Actually I think what's been missing from our R was the very thing we had during that long distance phase. We talked for hours every day, shared our independent lives with each other, supported each other, etc. During the years after we moved together that faded away and we did less and less independently, took on our roles in the house, talked less and less and basically lost that connection. W's biggest emotional need is intimate conversation and we lost that along the way. I believe the key to us working things out is getting back to that, talking and sharing and laughing and at the same time being more independent and sharing the separate aspects of our life with each other.

[soul_mate]

Not speaking for Still Trying, but I find my self in a similar situation. I agree with a lot of what Dom R says, yeah its better for the kids if you don't separate and stay and work on the M. The problem is you can't work on the M by yourself when the W is dead set against it. Yes you can work on yourself whether or not you are separated. I can tell you from my past 3 months that being separated does not take away the pain or make anything easier. The ? is what will work best for you end goal of eventually getting a marriage back that is good for both of you.

[dazednconfused]

Soul-mate, my sitch is similar to yours except for I signed the papers over a month ago. Our issues boiled down to bickering all the time, none of the big reasons for D. There has not been one word about a D since signing papers. We are seperated presently (40 days) but have not argued except one or two times. I dunno, I thought once the papers were signed it would be over. Heck, I have told her on 2 separate occassions (while arguing) to go ahead and file, yet, nothing. W may or may not be seeing someone else, who knows. I do know that she is seemingly happy when we speak, laughing and such. I act happy and relaxed (yeah, it is an act). Definitely no relationship talk, at all. Confusing. Guess I am the mayor of Limboville.

[still trying]

See, this is where I get all confused W tell me she still loves me and cares about me and wants to believe that things could be different, but that she's just thrown her heart out there so many times only to have me stomp on it and she doesn't know if she can get over it. She basically feels like if we continue to live together we're just going to resent each other more and more and then it will really be over. In her own words she wants the separation as a 180, she said that what we're doing isn't working and we have to try something different.

So, it does give me some hope, that she really wants this as a means to try and get to a place where she could work on our M. When I asked her if she'd be willing to do MC while we are separated she said that she just found a C of her own and would like to work on herself before we do that. I do consider this some progress as we have gone from 1.5 months ago with her saying she was done, to now where she seems to have some hope we can work things out.

It puts me in an odd place though as most of the other folks here are in situations where their W's say that they don't love them anymore or they want a D. Here I am with my W saying she loves me and does want to believe it can work out but doesn't know if I can ever change. So I can't figure out how much of the usual advice applies. It would seem really simple, all I have to do is show her that I can change and things can be different. But as I've told her, I can't do that if she's not willing to let me. In other words, how can I show her she's important to me and I really do care about her if she barely wants to talk to me or be around me? When this all started I pursued her and that pushed her away. Then I stopped pursuing and that just had us drifting apart. I need to work on the middle ground of not being needy and showing her that I will love her and talk to her and support her no matter what she does. Perhaps in time that will sink in.

It really sucks because here I am, for the first time really ready to be what she needs. I want to talk to her for hours, not because I'm needy but because this has woken me up and made me see what an amazing woman she is. And now of course we have had times where we've had those really good talks and all I get out of it is that it's because she said the M is done that we're just friends now and it proves we're better as friends than spouses. ARGH. I did make it clear in our talk the other day that I want that in our M, not as friends and she did seem somewhat reassured by that. I'm kind of wondering if she was just thinking I just wanted to be her friend and that's why I was talking to her more. Like I said I feel like on some level she doesn't want me to give up, she wants me to prove my love and that I'm a changed man, I just can't figure out how to prove that. I guess I'll have to get creative and shake things up a bit and watch her reactions...

[dazednconfused]

Still, I feel your pain. My W and I have gotten along over the last month. I believe that the key is that she has to see the changes in you, you can't tell her that you've changed. I learned that the hard way, but thankfully it was not a fatal mistake. She has to discover your changes herself. If you tell her you've changed, she won't believe it and she will resist you. However, if she notices those changes on her own, she will be more open to the idea that you have indeed changed. Remember, this is a marathon and not a sprint and there will be both good and bad days. Good luck.