I didn't really know your sitch so I just read through your thread. Your husband appears to be super Passive/Aggressive. You said that you were confused by him, but believe me, with someone so p/a that's exactly what you're left with, and our biggest mistake is in thinking that they don't know what they're doing.
I also deal with 2 extreme p/a's in my life. My husband and my daughter. They either say exactly what they think you want to hear or they turn things around to make you feel as if you either got what they said wrong or that they never said what they did to begin with. I've lived with this for a long, longtime. It's only now that I really understand the whole thing.
In dealing with p/a's there can't be any grey areas. Every question has to be pointed and the answer exact. Anything less leaves them with wiggle room and leaves us questioning ourselves and our sanity.
Look if he is really sincere and wants to work on changing and gaining your trust, then he would be open to getting some joint and individual couseling. If he is at that point then he should have no secrets. If he still has secrets then nothing has changed. You know him and if your gut is telling your that things don't feel right then there is a very good chance that they're not.
Thanks, HS!!!!! Your support is always great! Lol... I don't know, but I think my tow bill might eat up any savings if I were to use you as my mechanic. What a smart way to offer your mechanical services though... to those friends who live miles and miles away.
Thanks, Beth!! It is great to get feedback and support from you!!! Yep, my H is very passive agressive. No doubt about it. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that too. Yeah, they are so good at coming across like they don't know what they're doing. I do know better, but there are times I forget. My H has even admitted to being like this. One time that stands out was just this past Spring, when he told me it was hard for him to find a therapist he can't manipulate. Ha. At least there are times he is trying to be honest with me.
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In dealing with p/a's there can't be any grey areas. Every question has to be pointed and the answer exact. Anything less leaves them with wiggle room and leaves us questioning ourselves and our sanity.
True. I don't find this easy to do though. I think it's a good thing to work on, as it helps make me a better communicator in general. Anything you can share that has helped you?
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Look if he is really sincere and wants to work on changing and gaining your trust, then he would be open to getting some joint and individual couseling. If he is at that point then he should have no secrets. If he still has secrets then nothing has changed. You know him and if your gut is telling your that things don't feel right then there is a very good chance that they're not.
I agree. What you've said here has helped me see that.... asking H to go to C is something I could try. I haven't felt like the desire is there, but you've got me thinking I might need to test the waters to find out. Yep, trusting my gut (and knowing when not to, too) is one thing I'm grateful to have learned through the years.
Much of this limbo lies with me..... because as tired as I sometimes feel like I am with being in it, in actuality I'm not sure I want him back in my life either. It's no accident that we are not back together. I'm just as unsure as he is.
Over this last year I have only talked with H as a friend about going to IC, I've not asked him to go. And I haven't brought up MC. You've helped me to now seriously re-consider that idea, Beth, and I'm gonna 'try on' the idea over the next couple weeks.
I chose to tread lightly in regards to C over the last year, as our history of MC/IC in more recent years wasn't positive. He had actually asked for me to go in the Summer of '06, a couple months before he left. It was so out of character for him, and I didn't want to go. I'd suggested we try an alternative first, and he didn't look at any of them. At the time, my gut told me he wasn't looking for solutions. He was trying to blame me/M for his problems and I was very gun-shy about going to a C with him, fearing.... he would fool them, that it would do more harm than good, that he was just going to use it to drop a bomb. I'd just continued to 'act as if' and he seemed happier with me though it was clear he was struggling with something. He told me around February, that the MC had in fact been an ultimatum. Was nice that he was honest about that much of it at least.
I greatly appreciate you stopping by! Hope all is well for you.
Peace and love. f21
Me: 37 M: 14 yrs Separated 10/06; Filed for D 12/07 Life is good.
I have to tell you that I laughed when you said that from time to time you forget about the p/a dance. I still do that so don't feel bad!
Funny that you should mention your previous experience with C. My story was much the same and my reasons for not going were that I already felt like my marriage was a sinking ship. Turns out my gut was right and that session sealed the deal. He wanted permission to do what he did. See people go to C but if they're not honest about themselves or their feelings they take what they want to make their case. I'm sure his reasons for going were not to save the marriage as much as to be able to say he tried.
Fast forward a year. Now it's your turn to ask for what you want. If he's sincere and is on the same page he'll do whatever it takes, bottom line! If he's hesitant or posturing you pretty much have your answer. Of course it can only help you to have a professional to bounce any confusion you may have off of.
Heheee... glad you got a laugh. Yeah, I forget stuff from time to time. I'm glad I'm not the only one! There are just so many dances to be on top of.
Interesting that you had a similar story with MC. Sorry it went that way for you. I agree with you about what people do with C... it's definitely what we make it. When they are in that mode of 'making their case', it can feel like a no-win. It felt too risky to me at the time and I don't regret being stubborn about that, though I maybe just wasn't brave enough. I did what felt right to me. I've been able to use this time to get strong again, so ending up separated was more than okay.
Care comes to mind right now, as she is a DBer who managed to make the MC work in her favor despite her WAS looking for an 'out'. Of course, all of our sitches are different. In her case, she was able to use the MC to DB her H. It required a LOT of strength and hard work on her part, but she did it. Just thought I'd mention her, 'cause I'd recommend her old threads as good reading for others in that position.
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I'm sure his reasons for going were not to save the marriage as much as to be able to say he tried.
Fast forward a year. Now it's your turn to ask for what you want. If he's sincere and is on the same page he'll do whatever it takes, bottom line! If he's hesitant or posturing you pretty much have your answer. Of course it can only help you to have a professional to bounce any confusion you may have off of.
You're absolutely right that I need to be asking for what I want! Finding the tunnel with cheese down it is the challenging part though. I will not use it as an ultimatum, like he did. It would've been inaccurate of him to decide that I wasn't willing to do whatever it took because I initially turned down C last year when he approached me with it, as I was only nervous about it.
Yes, I also think my H just wanted to be able to say he tried. He loves telling me he did, and even that he didn't think I was trying. I know he "tried" in his own way, but I don't believe he was working on this M "until". I am lucky to have had some good convos with him about all this. I feel like I managed to both validate him and stand up for myself. We just didn't manage to take things forward from that point. I like your point about it being good to bounce our confusion off of a professional. I really like looking at it that way.
Thanks for listening, and thank you very much for getting me thinking! You're making a great case for me to ask for the MC.
Peace and love, f21
Me: 37 M: 14 yrs Separated 10/06; Filed for D 12/07 Life is good.
You're doing great, and never forget, you are the prize!!! Your husband is very lucky to have you. I hope for your sake that he understands this.
You know f21, I do believe that anybody can change. Where there's a will there's a way, but I've also come to realize that some people are so broken and have so much baggage that it's easier to run then to face their pain.
I don't know if you'll understand this or not but the way I see my ex is as "always the nice guy" which is one of the reasons they don't say what they feel. That's how he wanted me and others to view him. Always agreeable and seemingly content. What I now know is that people like him (p/a personalities) outwardly do this while stuffing their anger down with all of the other anger that's been building under the surface for a longtime before we ever came into the picture. Unforyunately there was a whole lot of damage done to them that we could not have possibly know about.
So chin up. However this wotks out you will be just fine. Shoot you'll be way more than fine, you'll be great !
You know f21, I do believe that anybody can change. Where there's a will there's a way, but I've also come to realize that some people are so broken and have so much baggage that it's easier to run then to face their pain.
I'm with ya. I also think people can change, but it is rare that they will in a significant way. They have to really want to, and that usually means there needs to be serious leverage in place in order to bring on the motivation. My H has been the kind of person who would rather run from his pain. There was a time when it wasn't me he ran from, so that helps me know this isn't about me. I recently mentioned to him that it must be hard to face it all. I know he's right when he says that I didn't really like him. I frequently didn't like how he acted. He was an @$$ quite often. As much as it did affect me and I knew it was his own insecurities, I handled it wrong much of the time. I made him feel as though it was a character issue. Many would defend me and say that it was in fact, but it wasn't the right way for me to deal with it all or treat him. It was very challenging, and I'm not beating myself up over the past any longer, but it's an area I wanted to change for myself. So, he's helping give me a lot of practice with that. I had been working on this for a long time before he left, but not successfully enough.
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I don't know if you'll understand this or not but the way I see my ex is as "always the nice guy" which is one of the reasons they don't say what they feel. That's how he wanted me and others to view him. Always agreeable and seemingly content. What I now know is that people like him (p/a personalities) outwardly do this while stuffing their anger down with all of the other anger that's been building under the surface for a longtime before we ever came into the picture. Unfortunately there was a whole lot of damage done to them that we could not have possibly know about.
Yes, I know exactly what you're saying! This is my H. Fortunately, his anger has been really coming out. That has been sort of comforting to me, for lack of better description.... especially once it wasn't me he was taking it out on. I was always the one who had the "anger issues" before.
Thanks again!!! I know I will be great. No worries there.
Love, f21
Me: 37 M: 14 yrs Separated 10/06; Filed for D 12/07 Life is good.
How ya doin' Sweetie? Look at that HS. Underneath that tough exterior is a very sweet guy!
So how has your week gone? I'm so glad that it's Friday already. I've had enough of work this week!
I've thought a lot about your sitch, maybe because it's so darn similar to mine. I do think that your husband seems to want to reach out. He is definitely p/a but he sounds as if he he's still in the game so to speak. Mine did that to but I got to the point where I had had enough. You know p/a's want it all and usually their way. I didn't understand this. If I had had it in me I may have been able to play it out and bide my time but he was damaging my children, so I told him that he had to get off the fence and file. Possibly if you do this right, you may be able to come through this with what you want, while at the same time giving him the opportunity to work through his issues.
This is definitely not for the faint of heart, but you're strong. I can see that in you!
HA, HS. What body language? The body language that said you might have found something interesting on the ground.... but then you were looking up, not down. So confusing. lol.
Bethie! Nice to hear from you last night. What a day yesterday. I am so lucky for good friends from these boards. I was smiling and laughing and feeling really good inside at the end of the day. Yesterday was a challenging one, for sure. The full moon might've been having an effect. By being as proactive and accountable as I could, I managed to keep fairly good control. No backslides that my H got to see.
A big part of me wanted to break down and just scream and cry, but I didn't end up needing to. Some tears came but they were very short-lived. I was pretty busy running errands, so that helped. I figured it'd be one of those inevitable cry fests when I had time to relax, but it wasn't. Yay! Woke up feeling just as great this morning. It's been a decent week, I have to say. And the next week will be better!!! I'll report on that later. Was it a rough work week for you, or just enough working?
Thank you, Jules and Kim07!!!!! I fought a good fight yesterday... to not lose hold of the detachment I have had. Big sigh. I'm winning, THANKS TO YOU BOTH.
Beth, what you wrote here...."...so I told him that he had to get off the fence and file." ....is exactly what was going through my mind yesterday. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately), there is a voice in my head that plays the devil's advocate. Maybe even better than that is me having more control over not giving myself an out. I've told my H more than once to just file already, but I have yet to really push the issue with him... which I'm guessing you had to do for your H to follow through.? I don't blame you for not "having it in you" to bide more time with kids involved. I've often thought that would be a whole different story.
Thanks for sharing with me that you think my H might still be in the game here. I get this feeling too, but who knows if I should trust it. I sometimes wonder if he is only dragging this out for financial reasons. I can continue DBing him, and hope more will be revealed.
I stop giving the positives value when I struggle staying detached enough to. I historically have a hard time ignoring the negatives. I do good with not obsessing over them, but having a zero tolerance policy with him isn't working for now. That would have to come later. I don't think that will bring him back if I quit every time I know he's living another life behind my back. I remember now my C validating this approach a couple months ago, but right after that is when I discovered some stuff and felt like I had to be done with him. Hasn't seemed to really matter that I've gotten off course, as I have recovered each time. I'm empowering myself and doing my best... that's all I can ask of me.
My C said that we remind him of the movie Groundhog Day. Phil does eventually transform into a good guy, after many replays of the same day. I will post more in a litte bit, to shed a little more light on where things are at right now.
Have a fabulous Friday and weekend!!
Peace and love. f21
Me: 37 M: 14 yrs Separated 10/06; Filed for D 12/07 Life is good.
