Well I guess it's more appropriate to move over here now. W and I decided the other day to do a separation. We're going to get an apartment walking distance from our house and swap places. Since she is taking night classes I will be at the house monday evening through thursday evening and her on F - S.
Quick recap... Been 3.5 months since W told me how unhappy she was, but was committed to working things out. After 2 months of me doing ineffective things she said she was done. Has never said she wanted a divorce and has only used the D word once, saying 'If we divorce I would want 50/50 custody with the kids'. No D talk at all other than that. She says she still loves me, still cares about me, still enjoys being with me and is still attracted to me. Never got the ILYBNILY or any other similar statements, she has always said that she still loves me. Her complaint is that I have been withdrawn and emotionally unavailable and she feels that I can never change and can never be what she needs, and that's why she is done.
I agreed to the separation, because we're stagnant and getting nowhere. I told her I'd like us to set a time limit to work on the M and attend counseling, and she said she couldn't do that. In light of that, I agreed to the separation since if she's not willing to work on the M I only see things getting worse by being in the same house. I also do feel that being apart will help me to work out my issues without so much pressure on me and fear of screwing up.
When we had our separation talk she openly expressed her doubts. She said that yes, she doubts her decision and she wants to believe things could be different. She said that it's really hard to get over years of feeling neglected and hurt and lonely. She said that she feels like I've been like this for so long that I won't be able to change. There is still a lot of love and when we go out together we have a fantastic time. I can tell at times she wants to be affectionate and close but she holds back because she's afraid to feel close, like it will just get her back into our unhappy M.
That's where we stand. Any advice on how I proceed? I do feel somewhat lucky as she still says she loves me and has never mentioned a divorce. We also still enjoy each other's company. She said that she would still like to talk and go on dates. She has given me a roadmap on exactly what she needs from me and obviously I need to do everything in my power to get there ASAP, which is part of why I feel like separation is good because when we're together it's so hard to not get overly focused on not screwing up and what I should be doing at any moment to work on our M. I need some me time to work out myself.
My concern is, how do I relate all of this to DB terms? This isn't the typical situation where W wants a divorce, doesn't love me, not in love with me, not attracted to me, determined to end it, etc. It's more of a situation where she loves me but I have to prove to her that things could be different before she will commit to the M.
In light of all that, do I avoid calling her and do the answer only some of her calls thing? Do I still wait for her to pursue me, or do I make some effort to continue to show her I'm not giving up? Do I play a little hard to get and make her wonder what I'm up to? Would it be ok to leave little gifts at the shared apartment to show I'm thinking of her (little things, not big I love you gifts)?
I'm not sure about how to play these details...
Things I know I am going to do:
- GAL big time - Work on being more open with her about my feelings and thoughts - Work on being supportive, listening without trying to fix her problems - Continue with my IC - Continue to flirt as she is flirty and we still flirt pretty heavily these days
Any other ideas on what I should be doing?
Next Wed. we're going to key west on a couples trip. I expect we'll have a great time, good conversations and fun together but no real affection or closeness. After that, back home and start our new shared apartment...
Personally, I don't think a separation is a good idea. It might seem like it'll make it easier for you to work on things but my experience is that all that time I thought I would have to work on issues, I instead spend on thinking about W. What's she doing? Who's she with? etc. And, if one of her complaints is that you've been emotionally distant then how does leaving address that? She's telling you right up front that she need to see some fight from you, some emotion and you're agreeing to a split.
My advice, take you heart out, stick it on your sleeve and prepare for her to step all over it. She sounds like that's what she needs to see, that you care and that you won't pull back when it gets rough. I don't mean showering her with gifts and ILY's but more projecting a feeling of caring and love. When she asks you to do something even if it's small, take it seriously and do it without being told twice and without telling her it's done. Let her discover it and then simply say You said it was important to you so I took care of it. Think about what's going on in her head and think about what needs she has. Try to meet those without her asking for them. If she calls you from work and complains about a crap day, maybe you can have dinner ready when she gets home. Or chores done. Or whatever.
I think (and I might get booed for this) that many women really want a man who will not take no for an answer, who will continue to love and care after they have given up. The best responses I ever get from my W are right after she tells me something particularly hurtful and I bounce back and pick up caring for her where I left off. They're tests and every time I show her nothing will stop me caring for her, it gets through like nothing else does.
Also, if you're already pretty flirty, maybe you should take it a step further. Maybe she's used to you flirting so that is more of the same for her but maybe she wouldn't be used to something more serious. I don't know how your relationship is but maybe seduction is more what you should be going for. That's flirting combined with confidence and intent. Flirting is fun and light, seduction is serious. Maybe she wants to see that instead. Again, this is something I have found to be true in my sitch.
Hi Still Trying Thanks for posting on my thread As a woman I would just like to say that there is NOTHING better than a man who won't give up. I read the DB stuff differently from you - you're talking about going dark, not showing how much you care, but isn't that just 'more of the same'? ie, what she was complaining of in the first place, that you've not been there for her? The 180 for you is to act like you're her best friend, listen to everything without judging or trying to fix it, and without putting pressure on her to "pay" for your attention by having sex.
I'm absolutely not going to give up. At the same time I can see that at times I've pressured her it's pushed her away. I think Brian is right, I need to throw my heart out there and show her that I can be that person, but without pressuring her. Specifically her complaints about me stem from several things:
- I'm too needy and this causes me to get hurt by little insignificant things, then I withdraw and don't talk to her for days (this I'm addressing and making progress) - I'm not open and hold back from telling her how I'm feeling - For years she has felt like she just wasn't important to me, and now I only want her because I can't have her - I haven't been a man, relying on her to make decisions and take care of things. The classic 'where do you want to go to dinner?' and I say 'Wherever you want dear.' - She needs me to listen and support her without trying to fix her problems. This I've been doing and I pointed out to her in our last talk that I'm supporting her in moving across the country for school even thought it may mean going without me, and she seemed to hear that and agreed.
Those are the things I need to correct. I just struggle with not giving up vs not pressuring her...
I'm working my way through The Way of the Superior Man and it has been an eye opener so far as it really addresses a lot of things woman need from their man and how the difference in emotional responses and communication between men and women should complement each other. It's hit me that my W needs me to be a man and I haven't been!
As for the separation, I have no choice. I don't want it, but what can I do? She said right now she can't work on the M, she's just not ready. Being around each other so much puts so much pressure and stress on us. For the past month I've been feeling more and more indifferent as none of my needs are being met and I'm rejected at every turn. Do I think the S will be good for us? I don't know. I do know that it's what she feels needs to happen, and if I stand in her way all that's going to happen is that she will begin to resent me more and more. And on the plus side, since she still wants to talk and go on dates, she will have plenty of opportunities to see me and see what I'm doing. I'm really hoping that through this we can get back to a point where it was like when we were dating, where we start to talk on the phone for hours every day. If we can get to that point then I'll be pretty confident we can get back together. Gotta keep up the flirting and manliness though, so she doesn't start to think of me as just a friend
So no, I'm not going to give up. At some point in the future I might have to. Right now the ball is in her court to want to work on the M, but the ball is in my court to prove to her that it's worth it. I'm trying to adopt a confident attitude that I will get her back, she can't resist my charms Hard to do when I also have to accept that there is a good possibility that I won't get her back. Realistic or confident? I don't know...
Ok question, should I make a final statement before we go through this? I'm thinking something along the lines of:
"You know this isn't what I want to do, but I understand how you are feeling and that you need to do what is best for you. I'm viewing this as us taking some time to heal so we can come back to the table and work on our M, and I'm going to use this time to work through my issues and continue to grow and improve. I'm not going to give up, because you are worth fighting for and I see so many positive things in our marriage that I would hate to lose. I hope that as we go through this you will keep an open mind and heart, and in time be willing to consider MC so that we can assess our M and what it would take to make something that works for the both of us."
Bad idea, good idea? I don't know.
One other reason I think the S is good is that I think it will take the pressure off her. I mean, once we had agreed on this she went from seething with anger to suddenly talking with some hope, like that MC would be a possibility in the future, that we could date (for the past few months she's barely shown any interest in doing anything with me). I do feel that this situation will allow her to be more relaxed and less stressed in my presence and that will make it easier for her to open up and able to take a more honest look at my changes. Of course on the flip side it could just make her forget about me. Who knows...
I guess I can also hope that we have such an amazing time in Key West that she changes her mind, but that seems unlikely. That's the hard part, I have to look at her and see how much she loves me and cares and wants to be close, but knowing that she won't let herself because she doesn't want to be hurt and lonely anymore. All I can do is show her that I can be the person she needs. We'll have a good time in KW, I need to show her my love and support but at the same time be more independent. Another complain she has had is that in social situations I tend to hover around her and I'm not outgoing and social. Been fixing that one too, so on this trip I need to make sure she sees me out there willing to talk with people and not just hang by her.
Is it wrong that I'm totally ready to separate NOW? That on some level I look forward to it, even though I'm the one who wants to save the M?
I need space! I don't know if that will draw her back to me or not but man do I need it. W came home from her weekend of camping. She actually called me on friday as she was driving up there, I didn't hear it and she left a VM saying she was just calling to say hi. She hasn't called to just say hi in months. Maybe something in our talk sank in? Who knows. But of course when she got home last night it was more of the same. Some nights I can engage her in conversation, some nights she just doesn't seem to even notice I'm there. We chatted briefly about my weekend, I wanted to hear about her camping trip but I didn't ask much as I didn't want to come off as needy or insecure. Granted I know I'm not and I really just want us to share our lives with each other, but I'm not going to beg her to do that. Best I can do is share my life with her and see if that compels her to do the same. So I have no idea who she camped with or what she did. Not too concerned about it either, other than the 'I love her and want to take an interest in her life' aspect of it.
I still find myself struggling through this sitch. I'm pretty sure if I told W I'm giving up, can't do it anymore, that would be it. I don't think she'd fight back. I think my not giving up is the only thing holding us together at this point and without that she'd see no reason to continue on. Yet I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. I know exactly what she wants from me. She wants me to be more open with her, she wants me to share my life with her, she wants to know that she's important to me and I care about her, she wants me to listen without trying to solve her problems. Biggest thing of all she told me a while back was that she saw has passionate I got about certain hobbies like motorcycles and she wished I had that passion for her.
I'm ready to give her all that. The problem is she doesn't want it now. She won't let me. I've mentioned this to her before, that I'm trying to give and be who she needs and I can't do it if she won't let me. She just nodded her head and said 'I know'. What do I do? How can I show her I can listen and support her when she won't talk to me half the time? How do I show her I'm passionate about her without seeming needy or when she seems uninterested in me most of the time? Do I just wait until she decides she's ready to let me do these things for her? Seems like that won't work. Do I need to skip the DB advice and pursue her more? I have no idea.
As for the separation, I have no choice. I don't want it, but what can I do?
Say that you dont want one any more, and stop helping her with one.
(yeah yeah, i know you say that you're "ready for it", but it sounds like you mentally know that it isnt a good idea. So, "want" is a statement of your rational "wants" in this case)
you cant stop her from moving out. but YOU dont have to help.
If SHE wants to move out, then let HER find an apartment for HER to live in. None of this "swapping time in the house" nonsense.
Then it's really her choice, instead of a "joint agreement to separate".
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
If SHE wants to move out, then let HER find an apartment for HER to live in. None of this "swapping time in the house" nonsense.
What purpose will that serve? I refuse to go with it, she takes the kids and moves out. She resents me even more. Is that going to help my cause?
There are two schools of thought on this one. The first is that you don't leave, period. The second is that you resist nothing and go along with whatever they want, even if it's a D. The first one may work for some people, if the W is just bluffing. Personally, for my W I know that she is a fighter and if I start a fight that's going to be the end. She won't back down and the best way to push her away is to tell her what to do (i.e. I'm not leaving, you'll have to leave). She will, and it will be ugly. Will that help me? Nope.
The first one may work for some people, if the W is just bluffing.
no, it's not about trying to guess if they are "bluffing".
Quote:
Personally, for my W I know that she is a fighter and if I start a fight that's going to be the end.
that's just it. you are NOT starting a fight. You are essentially saying, "you do what you want to do. if you want to move out, you move out."
You are leaving her free to make her own decisions. sure, she'll TRY to "start a fight" about it, to try to manipulate you into doing what she wants you to do.
your job is to avoid getting into one about it, and stick to the mantra that she is free to do what she wants. you just wont help her with it [unspoken to her: she has no right to expect you to help her with it, either]
Last edited by Dom R; 10/22/0704:07 PM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
that's just it. you are NOT starting a fight. You are essentially saying, "you do what you want to do. if you want to move out, you move out."
I agree in principle. The problem is I'm looking at it from the angle of is this going to help me achieve my goals.
How would doing this help me to get her back? Is she suddenly going to respect me for sticking to my guns and decide that she does want this M after all?
She's already made her choice, she wants a separation. There are only two options, I either go along with it and make it happen with as little ugliness as possible or I resist. Telling her I won't go and if she wants to, she is free to go is resisting. Passive resisting, but resisting all the same. It's going to happen on way or another, why resist it?
I've already seen benefits from not resisting. When we talked about this and I agreed to go along with it, she immediately relaxed. She became more open and we were laughing and joking about the bizzare situation. As soon as we decided on this plan it's almost as if she went from being convinced the M was over to suddenly feeling like there was some hope. I haven't been able to get her to do anything with me for several months and suddenly now she's suggesting we go on dates during the separation.
Now if I'd gone the opposite route and said no, I'm not leaving but you are free to do so if you want, where would we be? She be angry and resentful, not talking to me and looking to get out as fast as possible. Is that going to help me?
Plus with this sharing apartment arrangement I have the advantage of her having little reminders of me. Just a week ago she had mentioned her pillow smelled nice and I sniffed it and agreed, then gave her my pillow and she said it smelled nice, like cologne and me and it was really nice. Having my scent on the bed is one of those little things that will remind her of me
