Divorced but CANNOT "move on": Urgent Help Needed!

[NewHorizons]

DMW,

Look at it from the outside. A man has been divorced for two years. His recent activity would be considered stalking in many states. His wife has asked him to draw back and he continually repeats that "all is not lost".

Ok. All is not lost. Turn you back to her, live your life and see if she follows. That's all you can do. You have absolutely no reason to interact with her other than the kids and the courts cut the band that gave you any excuse to do otherwise.

You are putting yourself into a legally dangerous position. You are putting your relationship with the kids in a dangerous position because you refuse to accept that you are divorced.

Certainly, you can stand for you non-marriage but you have to do it from a distance. SHE will have to come to YOU without any prompting or activity on your part. Get it? You have got to realise that if you persist in your activities it a logical possibility that you will end up in jail, have an RO pulled on you, have limited contact with your kids and on and on.

You lead, if she follows fine. She is no longer bound to you no matter how much you try to justify her behaviour.

That's my two cents. I strongly suggest that you get on with it. I'd hate to see a good man put in a position to not see his limited family again.

NH

[Dead Man Walking]

Awesome job validating - and excellent job telling son he needed to behave. I think you did everything right. Good job.

Thanks, Ellie. I'll greedily accept any compliment at this point. (I need to keep up my PMA.)

[Just_Me]

Oh, so you think that the odds are on you getting back together so you don't even have to consider the fact that you are divorced and may stay that way? All you have to do is get a good job and everything will fall into place? Is that all that was wrong with the marriage and she only wanted out because you weren't making good money anymore?

Sorry, but that sounds like about the weakest excuse to get divorced, and an equally weak reason to get back together, because you suddenly can be her financial support. What happened to the old fashioned notion of being together because of love and accepting that your spouse might not be your sugar daddy/momma?

Based strictly upon those facts, most men probably would put the whole painful experience behind them

Wrong. Not the men on here. They've faced as much or worse than you. Some reconciled and many didn't. But many of the guys (and girls) that didn't reconcile still felt they grew through this process because they focused on themselves and being the best spouse they could potentially be, even if their W or H never recognized that or tried again. And some realized that while they could work on their own issues, they couldn't solve their spouses. Your life at this point seems dedicated only to getting your spouse back. I guess I said my piece about working on yourself and trying to make your presently single life fulfilling. That's all I suggest and you can take it or leave it. Seems we are on two separate wavelengths so I'll leave you to your thread and wish you luck.

Me

[azhira]

DMW,

Remember, the people here are really trying to help you. I'm reading a lot of hostility. Is any of this coming across to your XW? If so, that's reason enough for her to run.

Again, my xh has all these same issues. Trust me, I've been there. The weird conversations, the PTSD symptoms. I've had nights where we had to jump through hoops so he'd feel safe enough just to close his eyes. Oftentimes that means I'd have to go back to my place with the baby at 2am because he couldn't sleep knowing someone else was in his place.

It's not up to you to be her protector. Just like it's not up to me. While I do deeply understand my xh and have a lot of patience for it (and suspect it's beneath some, but not all of our R problems) I do not believe I am the only person for him. That's a scary statement to make. It sounds very close to "No one else will love you like I do." Which should set off all kinds of red flags.

Forget about the job problems. (Hey, I'm in IT, too. I know how that goes!) Forget about her issues, and quit trying to diagnose and protect her. It's not up to you. Okay?

Think about this (as others have said) from the outside. If you don't want to look like a schmuck, then don't do things that will give that impression.

There are no mitigating circumstances, as you've put it. We all get this back and forth. So no more using that as an excuse.

That said...what in the world were you doing in her bathroom??? Bad, bad idea for someone with a restraining order!! Please be more careful. If not for you, then for your kids! You could wind up in much more serious legal trouble!

Okay. Now. You are making progress. Stay off her property, stay out of her house. Stick with the listening and validating. And please understand that you can't make her come back, you can't convince her of it. What you can do is work on yourself and your own issues of neediness. Got it?

[Dead Man Walking]

This is probably a good time for me to take a break from my story-telling. I get so wrapped-up in getting my memories and thoughts documented accurately, that I often neglect higher-priority tasks. Like giving thanks, for example, to each person who sacrificed some of his/her time in order to respond to my rather sad predicament. There are so many good people--representing a broad cross-section of the adult population--who are willing to bring their life experiences to the table in order to assist others. I have been overwhelmed by the sincerity and genuine concern these people have displayed for perfect strangers.

I was very fortunate to have found this site when I did. These message boards are a tremendous resource for guys like me. Not just guys in my situation; but guys like me: introspective, hyper-analytical, stubborn, independent. These traits are great for a criminal detective, or an NTSB investigator trying to understand why a plane crashed. But when I was faced with the most daunting challenge of my life (the loss of the one person whom I was least prepared to lose), I treated it as I would any other problem: like a mystery or crime, to be solved by collecting all the evidence, interviewing all the witnesses, understanding motives, and eliminating false leads. By the time I realized the futility of this strategy, my marriage had deteriorated to the point that I was actually pushing my wife away from me.

Oh, so you think that the odds are on you getting back together so you don't even have to consider the fact that you are divorced and may stay that way?

This has been a lot more difficult than I had imagined. By that, I'm not referring to the necessity of losing one's ego in order to willingly accept advice which may be at odds with one's own flawed preconceptions. I don't have a problem with being told I'm wrong. Humility comes with the territory, if you truly learn anything from your failures.

The hard part (for me) is to understand that a statement written by one wise, experienced veteran of DB'ing may be quite true and relevant -- even if it appears to be at odds with equally valid advice from other wise and experienced individuals. Both perspectives may be valid, even when they appear mutually inconsistent from the perspective of a third party (me).

Just_Me, I believe you have oversimplified my position. I was responding to a particular phrase you had written:

"...You seem to think that if you acknowledge that you will more than likely (yes, more than likely) never be with your XW again that it will happen..."

I have a problem accepting your premise as fact at this early point in my long journey. You specifically want me to acknowledge as a given that I will most probably fail in my efforts to attract the interest of my XW.

I just can't get motivated every morning by telling myself, "[DMW], face facts: You already lost [XW] -- regardless of your diligence. No matter how successful you become at improving yourself as a father and husband, just take pride in your accomplishments for their own sake. Keep in mind that you will make yourself attractive to some other lucky lady who will recognize and appreciate you as an independent, detached, emotionally well-adjusted divorce. Don't let yourself dwell on the past. No matter how happy you thought you were, you were actually co-dependent and needy. Now, you're detached, independent, and ready to go for the gusto! [XW] only appears lonely and regretful."

When I go back to my first post, I see the words of a desperate, hurting, self-absorbed, needy, sniveling little worm. Not a mature, understanding, well-adjusted rock of emotional stability--which is what she expected of me. Sometime during the past 4 years, I stopped being the man that my wife admired and respected. Instead, I became a broken-down, burned-out shadow of my former self. Bitter? Hell, yes! Defensive? Of course! I had become an object of derision, to be pitied in my wife's eyes--not loved and supported.

All you have to do is get a good job and everything will fall into place? Is that all that was wrong with the marriage and she only wanted out because you weren't making good money anymore?

Just_Me, I think I have been misquoted. (I double-checked to be sure before responding. )

I wrote, "...This chaos has been a major factor in our marital problems. My XW needs stability and predictability." I stand by my words. My SIL and my XW's long-time best friend have both said those very same words to me: she needs stability. Of course, I do not believe a high-paying job is the "miracle cure" for what ails me. If only the solution were that simple, even I would have recognized it before now.

Yet, it would be foolish to ignore obvious facts -- even though they might reveal our "dirty little secret": Neither my XW nor I are fully-enlightened, emotionally detached, perfectly well-adjusted individuals, able to maintain blissful ignorance regardless of the family's financial insolvency.

To be fair to your observation, I won't deny that we certainly had our share of arguments and hot tempers before I lost my job. I remember XW hanging-up on me several times because I failed to let her know I would be working late. She even marched out with our infant daughter to stay overnight with her sister, outraged because I had two beers while watching football with a buddy, then drove home with "beer breath". (I was never more than a very occasional drinker, but I gave it up completely when my daughter was still a toddler.)

Sorry, but that sounds like about the weakest excuse to get divorced, and an equally weak reason to get back together, because you suddenly can be her financial support...

I agree emphatically. Hence my frustration and hostility! The fact is that my XW still has not put forward any "valid" reason for leaving. Of course, she didn't have to; in a "no fault" divorce, she only has to assert "irreconcilable differences". You may disagree, but for me that sounds like the weakest excuse to get divorced. Weak or not, I could deal with it better if she had said, "[DMW], I just can't live hand-to-mouth, paycheck-to-paycheck any longer. The stress of worrying about money has made me an emotional basket case."

What happened to the old fashioned notion of being together because of love and accepting that your spouse might not be your sugar daddy/momma?

That's ironic. You're almost quoting my words, written to her in one of a dozen or so email messages I swamped her with. She never even granted me the satisfaction of a response.

Your life at this point seems dedicated only to getting your spouse back. I guess I said my piece about working on yourself and trying to make your presently single life fulfilling.

Please don't assume that I missed your point. I believe what you say. I have nothing else to live for, as an "unhappily unmarried" man. The part of your message that hasn't registered for me yet is the part about it being somehow wrong or bad or "needy" to pursue my clearly-stated objective--which is to give my XW a reason to at least look at me in a new light. How is my goal naive and unrealistic, while the same goal is to be encouraged for people who may be still married but having trouble? Or those who are married, but separated? Or those who are in the process of divorce?

P.S., Just_Me, I do believe you're coming down on us (XW & me) a little too hard. It's quite well-known that financial problems have long been near the top of the list of reasons couple give for divorce.

[azhira]

Hey DMW.

when I was faced with the most daunting challenge of my life (the loss of the one person whom I was least prepared to lose), I treated it as I would any other problem: like a mystery or crime, to be solved by collecting all the evidence, interviewing all the witnesses, understanding motives, and eliminating false leads

lol! Oh, this is soooo me. When I first read DB/DR about, oh, four years ago, I had a preacher friend whom I was talking to about my marital crisis. He thought I was in denial, and that was my only way of coping. He may have had a point. Regardless, the process is a good one...but I recall being so sure that it would work at the time.

Well, here I am divorced, but doing really well with the xh. Anyway...that's an aside...

Sometime during the past 4 years, I stopped being the man that my wife admired and respected.

Yes.

Oh, she probably can't quantify herself the 'why' for the divorce because it's just a vague feeling of unease and unhappiness. Got this from xh a lot. You're nearby, so you must be the problem. Easy target. She'll have to figure out that all these changes aren't really going to make her happy, before she can go back and tackle the underlying causes. It's a normal progression, and one that can't be rushed. (Thus all the waiting around on the boards.)

[Just_Me]

I'm not going to do the quoting game or anything. You really didn't understand me, and you are too new at this to see why. When your down this road for a year or two and the "desperation" of the moment has worn off, you'll see what I mean.

You've basically got me wrong. I've been in this same forum as you. I do believe there is hope for reconciliation after divorce. I've been divorced and reconciled. Why would I conclude that it was an impossibility? As I told you repeatedly, moving forward isn't the same as quitting. Quitting is knowing you will never take your ex-spouse back. Moving forward is proceeding as if you will be a HAPPILY UNMARRIED man (not an unhappily unmarried man), and actually succeed in being happy without her. If you can't be happy in your own skin or without your spouse, then why would she want you? And that wasn't sarcasm or nastiness. It was reality. A person that can not be happy and complete on their own is not attractive. There is nothing wrong with having your goal, but standing stagnantly in one place is unlikely to help you reach that goal. Yes, I was harsh to you....mainly because you annoyed me. But it didn't change my recommendation or my perceptions...you are a divorced man that can't face the fact that he's divorced and that it's okay to be happy with your single life.

[Dead Man Walking]

Remember, the people here are really trying to help you.

Azhira,

Thanks for reminding me about people's helpful intentions. That's why I prefaced my last post with a word of thanks to all who have bothered to weigh-in on my troubles.

...I'm reading a lot of hostility. Is any of this coming across to your XW? If so, that's reason enough for her to run.

I'm a little surprised that my words are being interpreted as "hostile". I don't feel any antagonism towards you or anyone else here. What I do feel is frequent confusion and/or frustration. That probably results from my unfamiliarity with DB concepts or from a misapprehension of the advice I receive due to the context or the wording. Nevertheless, my consternation would be more properly directed inward. I'll work on asking more questions, instead of trying to justify my position so much. Thanks for making me aware of this.

The answer to your question is probably. In her case, my frustrations were my reaction to her decisions -- not a cause or excuse for them. (That's my perception, anyway.)

...I do not believe I am the only person for him. That's a scary statement to make. It sounds very close to "No one else will love you like I do." Which should set off all kinds of red flags.

Azhira, I have spoken similar words to my XW. (I think it was, "You won't find anyone on Yahoo!Personals who could possibly love you as sincerely and unconditionally as I do." I have even let her know that I would sacrifice my life for her, if necessary. I don't apologize for those words; I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. I don't necessarily believe that I am the only person for her. But am I wrong to feel that I am the best person for her? So far, she has done or said nothing to make me question that belief.

Her corporate attorney/gigolo may not be the "apple of her eyes" that he once was. I know that I'm suppose to detach and therefore be uninterested and unaffected by her dating decisions. Well, I must have a lot of work to do on myself in that area, because it actually made me smile (inside) when she told me that he was "mainly just a close friend"; that she is continuing to go out with a few other guys; and that she doesn't hide this from him.

Anyway, back to your statement that my words should set off warning bells for my XW... Was my profession of love for her any different than the same assertion would be coming from her father? I have trouble understanding why either statement should alarm a daughter--or wife. (Matthew 19:5 confirms my belief that a husband should love his wife even more than her father does.)

...what in the world were you doing in her bathroom??? Bad, bad idea for someone with a restraining order!!

I knew I would have to address this eventually. There was no "hanky-panky" in the bathtub or elsewhere. She had called me earlier that day to ask me to tutor our S12 with his math. (He's having trouble with some algebraic equations, and XW has trouble explaining the concepts to him effectively.) I had offered to talk him through it by phone, but she ridiculed the suggestion. (I saw her point: it's hard to teach with no visual interaction.)

I reminded her it was not one of the days on my visitation schedule--and that I was forbidden from the premises by court order. She responded in a low-key, "no big deal" manner. I think the conversation went something like this...

XW: "You can come over here if I invite you. I'll expect you to be here on quite a few occasions, for a lot of different things."

Me: "I'm glad you feel that way; I suspected that you didn't really want me banned forever."

XW: "Well, of course not! You need to be very involved with the kids' daily activities. I have told you time & again that I won't ever stand in the way of you being a big part of their lives. That means, I won't restrict you to only seeing them on your 'visitation' days."

Me: "[XW], the problem is that the judge's order specifically prevents me from being there, under threat of fine or jail time. I can't risk that for the sake of helping [S12] with his homework."

XW: "[DMW], you don't get it, do you? You won't go to jail because I would never do that to you--as long as you don't give me a reason to. You know I have no wish to hurt you like that."

[At that point, I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying what I wanted to say. Like, "So we really did waste $3500! You just wanted a piece of paper you could threaten me with, if I ever started in with another "guilt trip". But I maintained my silence for several seconds before going on...]

Me: "[XW], that's easy for you to say now. You testified under oath that I was a physical threat to your safety, and the judge bought it. You mean you're not 'afraid' of me anymore?"

XW: "You know you deserved everything that happened. You just kept on pushing me until I had no other choice. I was satisfied with a temporary order, just to give us both time to cool off. I never expected him to make it permanent. I'm not mad at you anymore--as long as you don't start pressuring me again."

Me: "Well, it's not exactly 'permanent', but it sure feels that way to me. He gave me a two-year 'probationary period'. If I'm a good boy, the order will be lifted in 2009.

"You know, the ruling does more than just keep me away from your house. I'm not supposed to have any contact with you whatsoever--no email, text messages, or phone calls.

"That's not the worst part. I can't even pick the kids up or drop them off at your house. The order says for us to exchange them at the sheriff's office on Cook Avenue." [My attorney said that safeguard is supposed to protect me from false accusations by my XW.]

XW: "I know. See how ridiculous that is? There's no way we can go two years with those restrictions. So, you need to come on over to help [S12] with his math. He is frustrated with my efforts and won't listen to me anymore. You do know that he is barely passing that class, don't you?"

Me: "But [XW], I'm still not comfortable about being there right now. Even if you wouldn't call the police on me, what about Susan [her man-hating neighbor who offered to testify against me, although she never witnessed anything]? She could see my car, and call the police herself."

XW: "She's out of town. Besides, she won't call the police on you. She already apologized to [D17]. She doesn't hate you; she was only trying to help me." [The night of my emotional "meltdown" in my XW's bedroom.]

"Has [D17] called you yet about her paper? She needs your help with a speech and research paper, due tomorrow. You may as well come over now, so you'll have enough time to help the kids before their bedtime."

...

Well, you get the gist. I finally relented, drove the 20 miles to my XW's house, and knocked on the front door. XW opened the door nonchalantly, as if I were returning from a quick trip to Wal-Mart, instead of a month of solitary confinement. She even told me that I didn't have to knock, since that just sets "Jack" (our Jack Russell terrier) off on a long barking spree.

After showing me the math problems that I needed to explain to our son, she disappeared upstairs. About 20 minutes later, I heard my XW call my name from her closed bedroom. I ignored this at first. On the third call, I sent my daughter to find out what Mom wanted. She came back to say that Mom wanted to talk to me in her room.

I don't need you guys to tell me that I was playing with fire when I finally went to her room. XW asked me to "fix" the digital video recorder on the TV in her room. While I made the minor adjustment she had requested, she disappeared into the bathroom. When I heard water running in the tub, I headed back to the dining room "homework table" with S12.

Maybe 10 minutes passed when my wife calls my name again. I walked up the stairs, but remained in the hallway outside the closed bathroom door...

Me: "OK, I'm here. What do you need?"

XW: "Come in here a minute; I need to talk to you."

Me: "I can hear you alright from here. What do you want, a towel?"

XW: "No. I want you to sit down in here, while I tell you something about [S12]. You really need to be aware of some trouble he has been getting into at school."

Me: "OK, but can't this wait until you get out?"

XW: "Just get in here! It will only take a minute."

I sighed, counted to 5, then opened the door. XW was in the tub, but the sliding glass door was closed. The room was dense with steam.

Me: "OK, I'm here. What do you need to tell me?"

XW slid back the shower door. She was completely submerged, except her face. Not even any bubble suds for cover. She opened her eyes after rinsing her hair. When she saw me, timidly leaning against the far wall, she suddenly started laughing.

XW: "What are you doing way over there? Sit down here a minute [on the commode] while I talk to you."

Me: "You think this is funny, don't you? Are you testing me to get a reaction?"

XW: "I'm just proving to you that I trust you, and that I know you really aren't a threat to hurt me."

[Despite her invitation to sit & "chat", I remained standing.]

XW: "You really are nervous, aren't you? I haven't ever seen you like this. It's kind of funny."

Me: "Just because you trust me doesn't mean that I trust me."

XW: [Laughing] "Aww, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to tempt you. You have sat there lots of times while I bathed. You never did anything before, other than sit and listen."

Me: "...well, I always did admire the view from up here."

Fortunately, my wife loves to eat crushed ice while soaking in the tub. She handed me a large, empty styrofoam cup.

XW: "Would you go get me some ice, with just a little tea, please?"

That was the excuse I needed to escape. When I returned with her ice, I set it on the floor next to the tub. I told her that [S12] was getting tired; I smiled and waved as I left, closing the door behind me.

She was right; I had often kept her company in the bathroom over the years. It had never seemed the least bit unusual for me to be there. The fact that I was uneasy about it now makes me sad. I think what I felt was either paranoia or guilt. Guilt? That could only mean that, sometime over the past month, I have come to the realization that things have changed between us. (That admission ought to represent "growth" or "detachment" for me, and be accepted as progress. So why do I feel so bad about where I stand now?)

[kml]

Okay - if you have another phone conversation like that with her in the future, would you please tape record it? Find out if the laws in your state require you to inform her first or not, then tape it. I think you need it to defend yourself in the future if that restraining order business ever comes up again.

I think you handled the stuff at her house well. Let HER pursue YOU for a change. Right now I get the feeling she's just checking to see if you're still on the hook. Don't let her feel TOO confident about that.

Ellie

[Dead Man Walking]

...I do believe there is hope for reconciliation after divorce. I've been divorced and reconciled...

Just_Me, you are right. I didn't understand you. I'm so sensitive to being told "put this behind you" and "she's not worth it" by well-meaning friends & family, that I assumed that you were giving me the same advice. The fact that you are one of the success stories now has my full attention.

If I may paraphrase your message, you seem to be saying that, until I act as if there is virtually no chance for reconciliation, then I'm not likely to start making the necessary improvements in my life. Otherwise, I'll fail to help myself because my refusal to give up my XW keeps me stuck in the same thought patterns that have failed me to this point.

Is that close to what you have been trying to tell me? (I'm kind of dense sometimes.)

...you are a divorced man that can't face the fact that he's divorced and that it's okay to be happy with your single life.

You're right about me here. Except that it's not that I can't accept that it's okay to be happy and single; it's just that at this point, I'm not happy being single.

Just_Me, I'm trying to get it. Don't give up on me; I need your expert advice & guidance. Thanks!