muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

[Nomopo]

The experts ive talked to\read say its ok to let the kids know your emotions (sad, scared for example), but they need to be reassured it will be ok. And it will be ok.

Nomo

[Puddle]

Heim,

I totally agree with you. I think the kids are going to hear "Papa's leaving." Period. He thinks, hey, we've been switching nights and weekends for months---no big change.

I'll be interested to hear what the kid C says. I know H isn't listening to me. When he said, "These people don't know us. I want to talk to someone who knows the kids," and I said, "Like whom?" he said, "Um, like you?" Ugh. Like he's listening to me!

But they're definitely going to feel it big-time. I know that. H doesn't. Thank god he's moving out instead of me.

My question for H is, "What do we say when they ask why?" (we'd be happier living apart). Still don't know the answer to that one.

I know this sucked for you (and Nomo). I imagine it's going to suck for me, too. Who ever had a "good" talk like this? Ugh again.

Thanks for posting, Heim. Hope you don't hold my 2x4 against me, as it was meant well.

Take care.

[Heimlich]

Hope you don't hold my 2x4 against me

Never. I also think we ought to call these love taps, that's what the are.

Regarding the reason why H is moving out. They're kids. They don't need to know the real reason. "mama and daddy don't love each other like mama's and daddy's should. For a while, maybe forever, daddy is going to live away from us. We both love you, it's going to be ok, etc. etc."

BD

[S.T. _I Made It!]

hey. just stoppin by for a bit. I've hurt my back recently so I'm not in a great position to type much.

If your H said he would say it was his choice, I would have left it at that. but you did say that you agree it's best now.

My whole thing with him making it sound like a "cool" idea, is that you do NOT want your kids to think this is the norm. well, unless your not a christian, or your someone who thinks that getting D is okay if your not "in love" anymore. I'm sensing that you are not that type of person. So I do not think this should be a fun conversation. It should definitely be serious like Heim said (I think it was Heim).

If it was me, I would of course be telling them that it had nothing to do with them, and your love will never change for them. I would also be very vague about why this deicision has been made. That you have both tried to make things work but this seems to be the only solution right now. Of course they'll ask why, but maybe even saying your confused too.

This really sucks because I would end up telling my older kid that I believed that M is forever, and unfortunately H was struggling with the M and he tried to make it work but doesn't think it can so he can't try anymore. I would have told him that I made a lot of mistakes too, and even though I can change, I can't make him stay, that has to be his decision. We can pray for him and continue to love him like God wants us too. I would also say that this is not what God wants, he wants M to be forever, and someday you might be M, and you need to make sure that your ready for that commitment and that you keep that commitment, just like Jesus did for us.

I know that's all a religious basis, but because of my religion, it plays a lot of how I look at things and how I raise my children.,

I'm sorry your in such a hard place. I just want your children to know that this isn't how it's suppose to be. But that we are all human, and we all make mistakes, and what they can do is learn from your mistakes so it doesn't happen to them.

take care...

[SunnySeason]

Puddle,

Reading about the "talk" with the kids is what gets to me every time.

Who ever had a "good" talk like this?

You're right, no one.

I'm having a little difficulty understanding your H's mindset.
(I had to LOL after typing that...)
Really though, is this typical behavior/thought pattern, or something new?

It does seem that you're able to handle the sometimes craziness of it all.

I've also been brainstorming ways I can make money. I work on a freelance basis, and I don't earn a lot. I think I may have to change the kind of writing I do, but if I did, I think I could earn enough to support me and the kids.

Somehow I can just tell you're an excellent writer, what type do you do now & what would you change to?


Take care Pud

[new_attitude]

Hi Puddle,

I think I have some idea what your H means by "putting a positive spin on" telling the kids (don't hold it against me!) We discussed how to talk to the kids w/our MC a few days before we finally did it. H told C that he was moving out because he needed space to work on himself- she told him that that's what we should tell the kids, a simplified version of the truth. Everything that I have read about discussing difficult topics with kids says that you should keep it simple and then answer their questions truthfully and as best you can.

Unlike some others here, I don't think that you should tell them that you and H don't love each other anymore because (1) that could change and (2) they may start to think that your love for them could end, even if you word it in a way that tells them that mommys and daddys love each other differently than parents and kids do. I think that's too complicated for little kids.

In our talk, we also stressed that they were still going to see both of us as much as they did before, and that has remained true so far. Maybe our sitch is a little different b/c my H is showing some willingness to work on things and has said that he doesn't want a D.

I hope I've helped you some. I know how much you're dreading this talk, but you're doing a great job preparing for it.

[Puddle]

Thanks, everyone.

Hey Nomo, yeah, I think H would agree that we're both sad, at least. That's something we can say.

Heim, they definitely don't need to know the reasons! "Papa has grown some antennae and they're channeling some very strange messages from outer space right now, so this is the way things have to be." Or maybe, "Batman has told us that, for right now, this is the smartest thing to do." I'm totally kidding, but these are things the kids might understand...

ST, I get what you're saying. I was raised as a strict Southern Baptist, though I don't subscribe anymore. I also thought M was forever, probably from watching my lovely, very religious mother deal with an absolutely ridiculous H (my dad) forever, but the god thing's not going to fly with the kids. I'm hoping to have the commitment talk with them when they're much older.

I'm sad to say that I think my kids, especially the 4-year-old, won't remember much from the time that mama and papa were together, that this will become the norm for them. I'm going to do my best to make sure that we remain a family, unfortunately mostly in the most modern sense, post move-out.

Okay, everyone, what about the money stuff? That's one place where I don't want to lay down and get walked on. I think tonight's mostly a fact-finding mission, to see where we are and what it's all going to mean.

Has anyone actually had a down-and-dirty with an accountant about this stuff? I'm thinking H and I need to sit down with our financial adviser, an accountant, and a lawyer all at the same time so we can figure this stuff out. I want someone to tell me, okay, here are the 12 (or whatever) possible scenarios. For example, if we D, it's going to cost me x for health insurance, it's going to mean x re me filing alone and without dependents, it's going to cost H x in terms of support, etc etc.

I have an acquaintance who was a family court judge for years, who's told me to send her our last tax return and H's pay stubs and she'll do the math. I was going to do that on the sly. Now that H and I are talking about this stuff, I'm afraid that if I mention I know someone (he wouldn't approve of how I know her) he'd get antsy and not want me to do it. Thoughts?

As an aside, this person said that yesterday would've been her 39th anniversary had she stayed married to H1. She got an email from him saying, "You're the smartest, sexiest woman I ever knew. Sorry things got so mundane..." He had multiple As before they split, has been married four times now, has no R with his grown children. She was agog.

But I guess the lesson is, if you don't deal with your own stuff, it doesn't just go away.

Thanks, everyone. Take care.

[Heimlich]

Hang in there, Puddle. I wish I worked for a different kind of mag, and one with a larger budget. You're an excellent writer.

I think I've mentioned this to WAW, but you're right, your 4 year old most likely will have no memories of the two of you together. I know that I don't. Honestly, I don't miss it. It's just the way that I grew up. Your kids WILL BE FINE. Your H, in for a HUGE dose of reality at some point.

Almost made me snarf with your antenae comment. My nose is still a bit sore from the water that almost spewed from it.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

Drat! I just realized you eastern-edge folks are going to be going to bed soon.

Hang in there, Puddle. I wish I worked for a different kind of mag, and one with a larger budget. You're an excellent writer.

Thanks, Heim. I'm thinking I'm going to have to go the technical route to make any money. I hate to do it, but that seems the smart thing to do right now. And I'm going to try to stick to technical editing (as opposed to writing), since that's easier. Maybe I can still do my travel stuff on the side.

Honestly, I don't miss it. It's just the way that I grew up. Your kids WILL BE FINE.

Yeah, they'll be fine, thanks for that. I know they won't miss it, either (at least the little one); it'll just be what they know, which isn't what I wanted for them. I can control a lot of the what-I-wanted-for-them, though, and I'll focus on that.

Your H, in for a HUGE dose of reality at some point.

I'll be interested to see how that plays out. I mostly hope he doesn't have to deal with that, though, since that means the kids will be in a better place. How's your D9 doing at school, by the way? And the little one, has she done any more hiding? I can't imagine what that's like.

Almost made me snarf with your antenae comment. My nose is still a bit sore from the water that almost spewed from it.

I'm so glad to hear it. I trust you'll be okay. And so will I.

Take care.

[Puddle]

Okay, H and I had our talk. It was pretty mellow, just looking at how much money comes in and how much goes out for what, and what that'll mean for our exciting new two-household family.

I simply gave him the numbers and let him draw his own conclusions. When he realized two homes means no remodel, he said
he was disappointed to see that his casual, "Hey, let's go ahead with the remodel" didn't seem viable, asked what I thought. I said I was also disappointed, but that I hadn't expected that we'd be able to swing it, so it was okay.

We talked a bit about mediation, and I said I'd read the book I got about it and report back. He said he'd already talked to the tax guy (news to me), who essentially told him it's a good idea to stay legally married as long as possible. I said, "My understanding is that we'll both be better off financially while we're married on paper." He agreed, said right now he's only interested in talking budget for the next six months or so, nothing long term, though he's "not going to forget about it."

Talked about where to take the money from to pay for his initial outlay for the stuff he'll need. Agreed to talk to the financial guy (whom I emailed later).

When he brought up talking to the kids, I said I thought it would be a good idea if we met with the kid C before we told them, and he agreed and said he's interested in telling them sooner rather than later. Says with the kids' attention span he doesn't envision a big talk, but expects "fallout two or three days later." Yeah, thanks, that'll be me.

It's his first admission, though, that there might even be fallout.

He asked me if when it's my night I'd sometimes just like to stay home (which I would) and have him out of the way. I told him I do want to hang out at home sometimes, but having him there doesn't bother me (which it doesn't). He asked whether after he leaves I'd like him to come over every evening (instead of two days a week, which is how often he takes care of the kids in the evening now) to hang out with the kids. I told him I'd think about it.

So we got through utterly without emotion (we'd had friendly conversation beforehand about his work, some crazy extended-family stuff, etc)---not unfriendly, but very practical.

When we were done he said, "One more thing that I'm curious to hear what you think about. A couple months ago you said you'd like me not to spend time with the kids and OM. And I haven't. How would you feel about that now?"

That threw me for a loop. I thought for a split second and said, "I'd prefer that you don't, but I don't have any expectation that you won't. And that's okay."

What do you think?

I realized his "keeping it out of the house," whatever "it" is at the moment, allowed me to put it in the back of my mind. It surprised me a bit that I only experienced a nanosecond of stomach knot, during which I thought, really? You're still there (with her)? Generally a positive sign, I thought.

Before he went to bed, he thanked me for running the numbers and apologized for being grumpy lately. I said, "Why are you?" He said this is all hard for him, it's not like he's just made a decision and now is happy happy. Said work's a drag right now, he's wondering whether he should just take a leave of absence. The two stresses together are almost too much. I said, "Is there anything I can do for you?" He smiled sadly and said, "No. Thanks."

End scene. Thoughts? Other than the fact that it's 1.30 in the morning and I'm still wide awake?

Take care.