Thank you so much for your response. I'm copying the last paragraph of it below because it was originally posted in another thread and I want to make sure that I can find it later. Here it is:
Quoting MPT: Now for the conversation I've been developing for you! When you're in a situation with your wife where things are pretty good, maybe you could ask her if she misses feeling close to you. Maybe say something like, "I've been thinking about how you say you don't feel 'that way' (or insert whatever word or phrase she's been using) about me. I was wondering if you miss feeling that way about me?" You're looking for the words that convey your concern for any sense of loss she may be experiencing. If she's like me, she is experiencing a sense of loss. If you can find a way to let her express this safely, I think you could be on your way to making the lack of sex (good sex, not just duty sex) a shared problem. You and she against the problem rather than "you are the problem." If she says something like "Is this about the sex thing?" Tell her, "No. This has nothing to do with sex. I don't want to talk about sex. I've been concerned about you." (Okay, so maybe it does ultimately have something to do with sex, but this is just a little bending of the truth that might make her feel safer about the discussion. I bent the truth a little when I told my H in our conversation that I appreciated him not getting angry or making me feel blamed. 'Cause he actually did occasionally do that.) She may not be willing to talk about it right then, but you'll have cracked the door a little and issued an invitation to talk about something which may actually be bothering her quite a bit. Even if she hasn't thought about this in terms of a loss, you will have planted the seed that she too is experiencing a sense of loss. The whole idea is to turn this into something that you two are exploring together. You're experiencing one of the normal swings of marriage. This time it is your wife who is experiencing less than optimal sexual desire. Think of this as setting the stage now for how things might get handled should the shoe be on the other foot in the future. (Now be careful of that little thought of "Yeah, then she'll see what it's like to have someone you love not want to have sex!" That's not a "we're in this together" kind of thought.)
I think this is good advice, but I have a couple of questions. First, I'm afraid that if I ask her if she misses feeling close to me, she'll immediately assume I'm getting into the sex discussion. How can I get past that first hurdle? If she says "Is this about the sex thing?" and I tell her it's not and that I'm concerned about her, she'll still think it's about the sex thing (I'm pretty certain anyway). Based on what I've learned from your previous responses, I am actually concerned about her lack of desire and how that may be affecting her. But I'm afraid that if I tell her that, she'll say "yeah, you're concerned about my lack of desire because of how it affects you". I just don't know how to communicate genuine concern for her without her being able to turn it around and think that I'm just being selfish. It's probably obvious that we have a real communication problem. I'm wondering (again) if it might be better to write her a letter so that I can say what I want to say without her jumping to conclusions. Let me know what you think.
Sooner's questions and concerns are the same ones I'm having (especially: But I'm afraid that if I tell her that, she'll say "yeah, you're concerned about my lack of desire because of how it affects you".) I assume this is a fairly common scenario in an SSM.
Yes, I see how that could happen. I have some thoughts and possible suggestions of how to handle it, but not enough time right now to write them down. I will get back to you though. Hang in there!
You know what always happens to conversations that you have all played out in your mind...they never end up happening the way you imagined. So keeping that in mind, here we go...
So she says something about how it's really just about you getting your sexual desires fulfilled:
One approach: gentle, non-sarcastic humor. You: "Okay, so let's just pretend for a few minutes that I DON'T think of you just as my personal sexual slave and that I actually do care alot about you. Have you missed feeling close to me?" You want to say this in a way that she will laugh with you at your exaggeration of her suggestion that you're only interested in her for sex. You might even preface the joke with a soft, gentle, barely-brush-the-lips, short-but-not-too-short kiss (I feel like I'm writing a scene for a chick flick. )
second approach: patient, restatement of your concern for her. You: "I really am concerned about your feelings. I'm not sure what I can say or do so that you'll believe in my sincerity. Help me out here."
third approach: non-angry withdrawal, with restatement of concern. You: "I really am concerned about you and your feelings. Just think about what I asked and maybe we could talk later."
Those are the three I've come up with so far. Let me know what you think. I did think of another response that she could have that would also not be good. She could end up dumping on you all the things she thinks you do wrong that make her feel less close to you. Do you have any ideas of how you might handle that?
Thank you again for your suggestions. Quite honestly, it's hard to say how any of them will work - but I'll go through them and give you my comments.
First approach: I'm a funny guy, but when the topic of sex comes up (or appears to be coming up) there's no amusing my wife. She gets very defensive and I don't think an attempt at humor will help. The kiss sounds wonderful, but unfortunately it's been years since I've had a kiss from her that was even slightly romantic. If I tried to kiss her, especially when starting a discussion that might lead to the sex argument, she would pull away and look at me like I'm crazy. This in turn would hurt my feelings and probably ruin any chance of a productive discussion.
Second approach: This has a better chance of working, but I still don't think she'd believe me. She'd likely think I was just trying some new approach that I'd read about (which of course I would be - even though I actually do care very much about her feelings).
Third approach: Pretty much the same as the second approach except that it would take her by surprise if I dropped the discussion and said that maybe we could talk later. This probably has the best chance of working as it's different than what I usually do. Still, it's no sure thing.
With regard to how I'd handle her dumping on me all the things I do wrong that make her feel less close to me, at least she'd be communicating which might better help me to understand her concerns. Unfortunately the few times that she's actually started to open up a bit, I've gotten defensive because I usually don't think I've done whatever bothers her. This obviously was the wrong way to handle it and has contributed to our inability to make any progress. I'm hoping that in the future I can listen attentively and tell her I'm sorry rather than being defensive.
Sorry that I wasn't overly optimistic about any of your suggestions - I realize you're trying very hard to help. Please continue to give my situation some thought as you have time and let me know any other ideas that come to mind. Thank you so much.
Hello. I am a new member. I am also a computer novice. That means I don't know the talk and tech stuff. However, I am fairly intelligent so I will get it. Last sex for me 4/10/98. I even remember the time. Had I'd known that was it I would have tried for a marathon session. Michelle's book blew me away. I actually cried when I read the parts of how I have comtributed to this deadlock. I was so wrapped up in my feeling and wants I didn't even consider that H had any feelings at all. Since he withholds affection as well it has really been a dry place around here. My H is into the kind of love that has conditions, a looooooooooong list of conditions that constantly change like quick sand. Plus in public I get treated like the Queen of Sheba and the minute we are alone the good stuff turns off and I start paying for any nice thing he said or did. H thinks he is not abusive because he doesn't hit but hitting is the least of spouse abuse. ( See I told you I was all wrapped up in how I feel.)
1. Don't leave book around. Makes things worst. 2. Work on you!!!!!!!!!! 3. They really are suffering and hurting people hurt people. 4. Check your motives. 5. Bubble baths are very relaxing. For men I suggest you buy a box of Calgon the laudry stuff. It has a nice clean non perfume scent and use Ivory of the bubbles part. Choice of music and or reading up to you.
Sooner, I'm glad to see you're taking my suggestions with a grain of salt. You know your wife and r'ship and have a much better idea of what will or will not work. There may not be a magic "key" that's going to open the door wide all at once. You'll probably have to keep trying different things and gradually pry the door open. You've already identified some of the things that you want to do differently. If what makes your wife feel close is feeling that she is understood, you don't have to agree with the content of what she says. Acknowledge her feelings. Deal with the content later or not at all. This works wonders with my children. Once I've empathized with their feelings, without saying one way or another whether I agree with their viewpoint of things, they become much more willing to listen, talk out, negotiate, or whatever. This works even if I'm the one they are upset with. I don't think adults are much different.
"She basically becomes sarcastic and says things like "I know, I'm a terrible wife" or "well then I guess we should just get a divorce so you'll be free of me and you can find someone else". I know that she doesn't actually mean those things, it's just her way of responding when such discussions arise."
Sooner, I pulled this from your post over on romance vs. sex. (I don't know how to do the quote thingy when moving something between two threads.) Let me give you what I hear when I read statements like what your wife says. Keep in mind this is what *I* would probably mean if I said something like this. (Your W=different person )
"I'm terrified that you think I'm a terrible wife. I even think I'm a terrible wife. I'm going to say it first before you do. I'm scared that I can't fulfill your needs. I'm even going to bring the 'D' word up first in hopes that you'll reassure me that you don't want one."
If fear and a sense of inadequacy is what you're wife is experiencing, she may be using sarcasm to protect herself. Maybe she does sense how important this is and she's scared and clueless about how to address the problem.
I could easily be wrong. It's been known to happen. She could just be trying to minimize the problem through sarcasm. Try out another interpretation of her sarcasm though and see if it helps. If she is scared and you "see through" her sarcasm, empathize with that feeling and provide her with sincere reassurance, you COULD end up earning many points!
I think you're exactly right about what my wife is saying through her sarcasm. I've thought that before, but it's nice to hear someone else say it. I do think that my wife's self image is damaged right now. She see's herself as fat (though she's not), unattractive (though she's gorgeous), a bad mother since she has to work and can't stay home with the girls (though she's a wonderful mother), and thanks to me, a bad wife. But she's actually a great wife. I'm upset over this whole intimacy issue, but otherwise we get along wonderfully. I've been trying to find ways to communicate to her how wonderful she is in hopes of helping her feel better about herself, but it sounds like I should probably try harder. Thanks again!
I don't know if this has occurred to you, and it sounds like you've been dealing with this pretty intensely, our situations are the same but different and all that...but somehow the more my W makes this an issue, the sillier the whole thing seems in the sense that it is getting blown out of all proportion. I mean, I feel that at the heart of it, things could be resolved if not for all the extra baggage that comes along (but then, that's true of most things, I suspect). When my W says "So you're not getting enough sex, is that it?" it both accurately sums up the problem and trivializes it at the same time...and I end up not knowing which is more accurate, "problem" or "trivial." After all, in the "scheme of things" sex shouldn't be that important...or should it? As you can see, confusion is starting to reign.
)
