Is it time to cut him off?

[NikB]

True - change is definitely scary. I'd just try to focus on the positive aspects a lot more, if you go that route. The more you tell yourself how scary it is, the scarier it becomes.. you know?

I don't really consider it a test, per se. I think that recognizing a hard truth can feel like rejection. And if he says "Yeah, you oughtta buy a house because I don't see us working out and I want to move back into this house"-that would feel like rejection and I am not sure how it wouldn't.

I see your point, definitely, about the rejection. Reading this part of it really sounds even more like you're testing him, pressuring him to make a decision before he's ready. That's a big "if" you posted there.

It looks to me that your goal is to hear his response, more than your goal being to let him know as an FYI that you're buying a house.

You know not to say "I know the 3 months aren't up yet but I can't handle the limbo and I want a decision, choose me or don't" - so instead you're saying "I know the 3 months aren't up yet but I can't handle the limbo and I want a decision - choose me by telling me not to buy a house, or reject me by telling me I should."

Does that make sense??

I could be wrong but I hope you'll really think that through.

On what you planned to say to him, I hope you don't mind if I pick this apart a bit... take it or leave it but this is my reaction, trying to view it from the WAS perspective. Also, I wouldn't recommend addressing it at all unless/until you have found a house and are pretty much committed to buying it. Otherwise it looks like manipulation and like a "test" to get his reaction.

I do not want a divorce at this point and ultimately would hope that we would reconcile.

This to me just reinforces "I'm making this move for me but don't worry, I'll still be right here waiting and hoping you choose me." I'd strongly urge you to always make it clear that the decision to reconcile or not belongs to BOTH of you. Remember, you're dating, you're evaluating him as long term R material.. not hanging around hoping he picks you.

I can't continue to live in the house and you are unhappy in the apartment. I get that.

Unless you say this RIGHT after he says he's unhappy in the apartment, which would be validating his feelings, this is telling him how he feels (and leads into how you're going to fix it for him). On top of that you're telling him where he'll be living. I hope you realize that is a totally separate decision from your decision to buy a house and move out. Where he lives is HIS decision to make.

You know I hate moving and that moving my businesses causes big down time. So, I am opting to buy a house.

Guilt, guilt, guilt... the only thing that matters is the fact that you are buying a house, not all the reasons behind it and implications that he's "making" you do this.

If we reconcile, then I am sure you will happily help me move back in and we can decide what to do with the house I buy.

Wow, where to start... you're predicting the future, putting pressure on him to reconcile, telling him how he will feel ("happily").

And if not, then I have already started to build my life and won't be forced into another move.

He does not want to be responsible for your well-being at the moment. He wants YOU to step up and do that. "forced into another move" = more guilt, more making him responsible for how you feel.

Obviously it has to be in your own words but I think you need to take a hard look at it and take out the mind-reading, the forecasting the future, the trying to "fix" him and the sitch, and all the guilt. I also think you need to acknowledge that it's a change to your initial agreement. Maybe something closer to this?

H I know that we initially agreed to these living arrangements for 3 months, but I have found that it's too painful for me to remain in this house. I do not want a divorce at this point and may still be open to reconciling in the future, but wanted you to know that I've decided to buy a house. I plan to live there for now, and possibly make it a rental property in the future. We'll need to discuss what to do with this house [current home] once I move out."

.. at which point you could talk about the various options for the current house, or leave it that you'll think about it for a specific amount of time and then meet again to figure out the logistics (i.e. suggest that you both think about it for a week and then decide what to do).

That makes it clear why you're changing the agreement without all the guilt-associated reasons for buying vs. renting, and by mentioning the rental property in the future you make it clear that there are other options for the house should you no longer live there. And notice that I was careful to say "I may make it a rental property" - not "and if we reconcile we can make it a rental property." Keep any "we" or "if we reconcile" talk out of it. It says loud and clear that you have options in mind if you reconcile, without the extra pressure. It's also much clearer that you may make it a rental property on your own - in your new life, that may or may not include H.

Make sense?

Also keep in mind that where H lives is HIS CHOICE and he will likely resent any attempt by you to control that. You are assuming he'll move back in and you're likely right, but he may not. He may want to move back, he may want to put the house up for sale and start fresh, who knows. If neither of you wants to live there can you afford the mortgage, his rent, and your rent or mortgage, while the current house sits vacant? If not, you may have to sell it or rent it out... lots of "ifs" and they can drive you nuts but make sure you're REALLY thinking this through before you go this route.

Hopefully others will have feedback for you too on what to say, but I think the very first question is whether it's really what you want or it's just a different approach to demanding that your H makes a decision.

[NikB]

I almost forgot

((((Agent99))))

I know this is so hard.

[Trixi]

Nikki-I have gone thru your post-it's a lot to digest and I am off to show homes shortly.

Things are getting worse. H showed up at the house yesterday. Called from the house, discussed our DD with me and said "I still don't know what I am doing tonight-are you busy?" I said I hadn't figured it out yet.

I get home, he's doing karaoke. We talk more about DD. I do some work. He was friendly, but not like before. I asked if he had told me he was coming over and he said no. We watch tv. He snuggles up with me; but still it doesn't feel like it did before. Watch tv til 1am. Go up to bed. He starts to get frisky. I 'ruin the moment' because I don't just go for it. He rolls over on his back and I lay my head on his chest and eventually he says "What are you thinking?"

I tell him that I was thinking about how I don;t like that he just showed up and then expects sex; that he didn't date or court me. He says "So I have to tell you ahead of time what I am doing?" And I said "to me, dating and courting means making plans--showing up unannounced and expecting sex seems like booty call." Then he goes "Well, I wasn't even sure I was spending the night. I didn't bring my overnight bag." (What that has to do with anything I am not sure.) Anyway, he said something with the gist of not wanting to plan and I said "that's fine. If that's how you "roll" and you don't want to make advance plans with me, that is your choice." H "So, what does that mean to me?" and I said (not in a mean way) "Well, that means 'no soup for you'" He gives me a look of 'whatever-no loss' and goes "ok. that's fine." And rolls over.

WTF happened? I am leaving to go show homes today (he asked what happened to me scheduling the showings for Saturday and I said that my clients preferred Sunday and I wasn't really clear on what was happening this weekend so I left it be) so there won't be any further discussions for several hours. In other words, I have time to get my head together (and hopefully someone will have some insight.) My head is spinning because a week and half ago, things were peachy.

FYI-He doesn't know I have been looking at houses for me. I haven't broached that subject.

Insight?

[Trixi]

Update-
I all of a sudden realized why the overnight bag comment was important-- he was trying to tell me that he was not assuming that he was coming over for sex. duh.

I showed homes all day (8 hours-3 different clients) and came home. He was doing karaoke and still seeming to be distant. I started crying (3 hours of sleep and a long day made me weak). He asked what was wrong. Sat down with me on the couch.

I asked him why he was being mean/cold (I was searching for the right words) and he volunteered "distant?" and I said "yes. distant." He said he didn't know why. He said that he had been thinking about how nothing is really changing and wonders what we are doing. He's frustrated that he hasn't figured it out. Thinks maybe he needs more 'excitement'....

At some point, I turned and put my arm over his lap so that we were facing each other and touching. I told him that it makes it easier to get past the barriers when people look in each others eyes and touch. Then we get to some of the real deal- he has been too busy with work and school and was feeling like I wanted all of his spare time. He felt like I had some "certain amount of time" that would qualify as "spending time together". Since I denied him sex, AFTER we had been spending time together on the couch, snuggled, had dinner together, talked etc. He was mad about it. He was also disturbed that I showed homes today. I explained that I was mad about Wednesday and how annoyed he was that I asked which day to show homes; so I decided to not jump thru hoops to change things--my clients' first choice had been Sunday, so I stuck with it. We both agreed that we should have talked about our feelings sooner instead of letting them stew.

He brought up that we are taking dance class on Mondays and Wednesdays and I said I would gladly forego those in exchange for the weekend. He said that he has wanted me to help him w/the garage. I made a deal that I would help him this coming weekend, but I wanted to go out at least one night and that I would also want to go out of town in the near future. He agreed. We went upstairs and, well.....yada yada yada and we fell asleep for a nice nap.

I think we are both frustrated that things aren't clear yet.

He had been so distant this past week and then with me looking at homes (and none of them really singing to me)--it just was front and center in my brain that maybe we won't be together in the future. Last night, I would fall asleep and then wake up with my heart pounding out of my chest and my brain screaming "OMG. no no no. I don't want this." The fear was almost palpable. The fan was on and often I would smell him from across the bed. (Cologne/him- not BO or anything.) I had started to go thru this process in August, but now that we've been dating, it would be a whole new wound to deal with....

I am seeing in other forums that people say that the LBS shouldn't move out of the house--can anyone tell me why?

[azhira]

99,

Well, I actually have the opposite opinion...lol...things always got better after mine left. (Of course, he's taken off several times now.)

[Dom R]

I asked him why he was being mean/cold (I was searching for the right words) and he volunteered "distant?" and I said "yes. distant." He said he didn't know why. He said that he had been thinking about how nothing is really changing and wonders what we are doing. He's frustrated that he hasn't figured it out. Thinks maybe he needs more 'excitement'....

What I think he is saying is, "he isnt feeling an 'in love' hormone rush", and he's looking to base his decisions on what to do, around "what makes him feel good". Instead of "feeling good about doing the right thing".

that reaaally wants me to pop him one, and yell at him, "GROW UP AND BE A MAN, YOU PUNK!"
It makes all of us men look bad. ugh.


I'm thinking that when the 3 months rolls around, you will be well served in having a short, but concise and rational argument prepared, along the lines of, "getting married, isnt about 'staying together so long as you feel the juices flowing'. Tt's about choosing to stay together, and then choosing to make things fun for each other because you have chosen each other".

Or, to put it another way, he's suffering from "grass is greener" syndrome. He IS enjoying your time together.. but the punk keeps wondering, "well, this is fun.. but maybe I could have MORE fun if...."

Thing is... he's already shown himself, that he does NOT enjoy dating other women. So, he's just being dumb, and you'll probably just have to keep with the PMA, and wait him out of his "stupid phase", at least for a while longer.

I am seeing in other forums that people say that the LBS shouldn't move out of the house--can anyone tell me why?

a large chunk of it, is for legal reasons.

hang in there. try to avoid extremes, one way or the other.

[NikB]

Agent99... lots to read here but in a nutshell wanted to say GOOD JOB for not having sex when you didn't feel like it. That's hugely important.

On the moving out... I think some of it's legal and some of it's a control thing. When you're already taking a lot of "abuse" (or hurt, or whatever) from the WAS it's like adding insult to injury to also lose your home.

If you're in a place where you are excited about a new home, or like in your case where the place you're staying doesn't feel like a permanent home to you, I think moving can make sense. Just make 100% sure (or as close as possible) that you're protected financially.

[Trixi]

I'll keep it short-
Today I had to drive H to his apartment and it made me SOOOO sad. Probably not why you think, though.
I did not go in; I just waited out in the car looking around and it broke my heart. The paint was peeling, the trim at the bottom of the decking was green with algae(?), it just looked..bleh. I started crying that he had to live like that. He pays for me to live in a 3 year old, 4+bed house and he lives there.

He came back to the car and was chit chatty and I started crying; he asked why and I said "I am soo sad your living there. It's just so... blechh." He sort of laughed and said "it's not THAT bad." and then said something about it was weird that I was feeling sorry for him- to which I agreed, it was weird.

WTH is wrong with me? Why do I feel so bad for him? And what does that say about how badly he wants out?

[NikB]

Detach Agent99.. detach. It's the only advice I can give.

I got (in a nutshell) "I'll probably end up alone and miserable but it's better than being with you" not long ago.

I saw the room H rented when he left briefly last year and it was really bad. House was OK but the room was awful (the cat litter box was even in the bathroom he was renting!).

You detach or you let it eat away at you... your choice.

[Dom R]

WTH is wrong with me? Why do I feel so bad for him? And what does that say about how badly he wants out?

I dont think there's anything wrong with you feeling bad for him.

Nor do I think that it indicates "how badly he wants out".
I think it's more like he just grabbed what was available. But he's probably not planning on living there permenantly, anyway.


Plus, there's the factor that men usually just dont care as much about that sort of thing when in "living alone" mode. What are "intolerable living conditions" to you, could just go unnoticed by him.