Down and out...need hope.

[DownNotOut...yet]

Hey brother, checking in on you.

As I read what you have written, it appears you may have some LBS fog going on. Let's review and you tell me what you think...

we get in the elevator and she makes sure shes standing completely on the other side of the elevator from me. then at dinner, she chooses a seat in which I cannot be very close

If things peachy keen between you, would you have noticed either of these things? Even if you noticed, would you have thought much of it? The elevator thing I think you would have not noticed and the dinner table you might have thought a bit strange but not read much into. LBS over-analyze everything. Could have meant something on her part. Maybe not. Don't let these small things break your PMA.

mine was top secret, read below the table, put in purse, and I get a quiet thank you

Perhaps yours was top secret because she didn't know what to expect, perhaps you only got a quiet thank you because if she gave more, she might cry and out herself in front of everyone?

I added that they don't get it at MY HOUSE either

Aren't you still in the same house. I am pretty sure she meant nothing by the MY HOUSE statement but because you are LBS you are reading too much in to it and are sensitive. Try to avoid this. It makes you look bitter and petty. FWIW you are actually doing pretty good in coping. I made all the same LBS mistakes as you and WAY more. My sitch went backwards until I learned to lighten up. Lighten up!

I can't believe you went in there and layed some "magic" on her. Had I tried that, my wife would have wrapped her legs around my neck and popped my head off...then collected the insurance...then run off with the kid who works at the video store. You got stones for sure. I think your response might have been OK too. If you have enough faith in the quality of your "magic" then it makes you look sort of cocky and self-assured. Probably not bad. I think though, you want to lay off on that kind of stuff. It is pursueing no matter how you slice it. Though there are a lot worse ways to pursue...and she let you do it. I read that as a positive.

Both of your posts do not paint nearly as dark a picture as you are seeing. BTW expect her to be rude, selfish etc...It will be all about her for a long time. Expect to see no progress for a while. The progress may be happening in her mind for weeks before she even gives a hint of turning.

Get PMA in any way you can. Woman want happy, confident guys.

[duckman]

Hey, I just wanted to say your GAL ideas sound great. It helps-I sat around the house for the first month feeling sorry for myself. I still have bad days but several good ones between them.
Make yourself happy right now

Duckman

[Tostada]

wow..thanks Downnotout...talk about pumping somebody up. I'm sure I'm looking into every negative and every possible positive I see. I do need to chill out, though easier said than done. We are still in the same house and I am very sensitive to every move, thing she says, it goes on and on.

I knew it would be pursuing. Am glad she 'let' me do it. She could have kicked me right out of there. She tried to act like she didnt really want it but opened up to me being next to her. It was a risk, but I'm glad I did it. I weighed out the consequences of her pulling way back this week, but I figured we wouldnt see each other much in the next two weeks, so I thought it would be a good sendoff. I went in to talk to her this morning because she took the garbage out. She has a real problem of not allowing me to help her, even though she has complained about me not helping enough. It happened last night when she had her hands full, but wouldnt let me help her out. So, I told her that I'd like for her to allow me to help her out. She said, 'I do'...sounds kind of like me...but I said I just wish she'd be more open and allowing of me to help out more. Thats all I want to talk about and walked away. However, at the beginning of the conversation she said, "I dont want you coming into my room anymore at night"..o.k...I could have brought up how much I thought she enjoyed it, or how much I enjoyed listening to her enjoy it, but I didnt. I went right into the 'help' subject and then left.

We have counseling tonight and I will try to defer the talk on separation as best I can. Plan is to say we wont be seeing much of each other for two weeks anyway, this is moving very fast, and I need time to digest this a bit. Something along those lines. I will also promise to leave her alone at home...

[DownNotOut...yet]

That helping stuff is tough. I hate when women do that (sorry girls). It is like catch 22. Consider this though. When she said, "I don't want you coming into my room at night anymore." You just said OK and didn't bring up how much she enjoyed it - GOOD. Now with the helping, she said no thank you but then you had to tell her that YOU'D like for her to allow YOU to help her out. That is about what you want - BAD. Make the offer, she knows you are offering. If she turns you down, just let it rest. What you did after she turned you down was the stuff you want to avoid. I bet she knows what she is doing. It helped me to sometimes thing of it like a game. She might say she doesn't want your help the next 20 times you ask. She will notice you offering though. Keep offering. Eventually she will say yes, please and thanks for the help. When I started cleaning the house, my wife would get bitchy and say, "You don't have to do that." I would only answer, "I want to." After month or so, she started thanking me for the help. Then after a while she began to sometimes tell me to stop cleaning and come watch TV with her or something. Hope this is making sense. I am not always the best at explaining.

Don't promise to "leave her alone at home." Promise not to come into her room at night...unless invited. That sounds a lot better. Remember, you're Mr. Big Stones. Positive and confident.

[Ronda]

Tostado- your plan sounds pretty good. Definitely GAL. That has actually helped me. I spent the first two months being depressed at home. GAL and not pursuing are what is working for me, so far. Now I have a job! I enjoy it and am making new friends. Since he gets home mid afternoon and I don't get home until 6 I have been wondering what would happen. Well, last night he made supper and tonight he got take out, but bought something for me. Yay! He was thinking of me. He's still being very cordial to me, but I can tell that he is starting to relax when he's with me. I haven't brought up R or did any pursuing in 3 weeks and since he has been relaxing around me, I don't even want to anymore.

It gets easier as it goes along. For one thing, I think the S starts to relax a bit more and inturn you do, too. When he tells me he's going somewhere, I just say OK. I don't ask anything- ever! lol He has actually started telling me where he's going and when he'll be back or leaving a note to tell me those things. Progress! He had been just leaving with no word about his whereabouts.

Remember- it's all about her right now. I just read my book about MLC over each night and try to find the good things that have happened. Time will tell. So go out and GAL! Ronda

[sandi2]

Hi tostada, I'm Sandi2 and I have been reading some of your stitch. I was almost a WAW from 41+ years of M. I went through something like a MLC.....very late in life I might add, but thankfully it did not last as long as most I hear about. I give credit to this board and the great advice I was given when I first came here. If it had not been for that, I probably would have a very screwed up life right now.

I can identify with how your W wants the space from you. I can identify with her resentment of you trying to do all the things she had wanted you to do for years.....but now she feels it is too late and it is smothering her to death. To be very plain, she wants away from you! However, I don't think her leaving the house is a good idea. As long as the two of you can stay under the same roof.....I think the better chance you may have in working the M out. But, that C is poison to your R and you need to get rid of her immediately. I went to one and told her up front that I was into internet sex, etc. and she did not see anything wrong with that! She blamed everything on my H. That was a big clue for me to stay away from her.....and she is the most highly qualified C around here! Scary!

Anyway, my H told me if I left.....there would be no coming back...and I knew he meant every word of it. I could not support myself and I knew he would not help me, so I was pretty much forced to stay home or else move in with my mother, which I did not want to do. But, I did tell him to back off immediately or I would leave. He was doing all the things you have done and it was driving me crazy! The more he pressed me, the further away I wanted to get from him. He also snooped into my email, phone bills, dresser drawers, everything in the house that would give him clues as to what I was up to. I was so furious at him I almost hated him. Even though I was the one that was having an EA with a man over the internet, I felt as though my H had violated me by snooping! Crazy, I know, but that is how WAW's think. The thing is, it pushed me closer to the OM.

My H did give me space and we live in a very, very small house. But, this is what he did. He mostly watches TV at night and I would come to the back room where our computer is and I would stay on this board.....reading and posting until bedtime. This was my therapy. I ordered every book anyone suggested and I'm still reading when I go to bed. My H and I do not share the same bedroom.

At first, things were very strained between us but in time we began to lighten up and become more relaxed around each other. Of course, the first thing I had to do was make my decision to cut the OM out of my life and stay with my H. However, even after doing that, things were not automaticaly fixed. Not by a long shot! And I told my H that I would have to go through a grieving period to get over the OM, and believe it or not, he understood and has been very patient about it.

So now I am approaching my 3 month anniversary of no contact with OM. I can tell all the difference in the world in my emotional feelings about that. B/c it was only an EA where he was feeding my ego. But, it was like a drug that I had become addicted to and it was hard to let go of it.

I don't know your ages.....I think I missed that in the post. But it sounds like she may be going into MLC. She is missing the single life and wants to replay that. I only pray that it does not lead to meeting OM and leading to an A. All this social activites without you with her is like sending out signals that she is looking for something and is vulnerable to an EA if not a PA. I know you don't want to hear that, but you surely know in your heart that it is just a matter of time if she keeps this up.

My advice to you would be to stay under the same roof as long as possible. Once she is out on her own, she is going to really do things you won't be happy about. Plus, she may decide she really like that freedom and doesn't want to go back home again. I think you need to give her as much freedom from "you" as possible right now, and I know that scares you, but you've got to stay away from her and stop pressing her and trying to control her. My H tried to "force" me to stop contacting OM. He did some really silly things and treated me like a little child! Well, if a woman wants to contact OM, she will find ways of doing it and her H can't stop her. That's exactly what I did. So, don't try to control her.....she will rebell.

Stay busy with the kids and doing jobs around the house....inside or out. Doing things that would help her (like vacuuming the floors, putting on a load of clothes to wash, cleaning the kitchen, etc.) would be good.....but don't draw attention to it as if you want her to notice that you are doing it for her. The more you say, the worse it will cause her to act. She will notice, but at first she will resent it, b/c it is the thought process of the WAW that makes no sense to the LBH. If she asks why you are doing it, just tell her you want to do your share around the house and let it go at that.

She is very unhappy with her life and she is going through some thought process that you cannot understand. She is trying to figure out what she really wants and she thinks she knows but then she gets confused and feels guilty, etc. That is one reason you never know what to expect from her. She thought she had her plan all worked out in her mind. But then, she gets frustrated and her feelings get so messed up and she is angry, etc. Of course, you are too, but as others have warned you....to her, it is all about HER right now. All she can think about is how unhappy she is in this M. She feels trapped and she wants freedom. She can't even think about what is best for her children b/c of the "fog" she is in. She will try to convence herself that the kids will be fine, etc. and that you would be better off without her.......all WAW's think that way.

I think the more you could arrange to be away with the kids while she is home, the better......for right now. She is not going to be interested in family days together etc. for quite some time yet. So, spend time with the kids and plan to be away as much as possible while she is home. When that is not possible, then spend your time in another room in the house. Do as much as you can to help with the kids at night. When you are around her, be polite (not cold), upbeat, everything like the DR book tells you. Use that time alone in your bedroom to read that book over and over.

You must stop analizing everything she says and does or it will drive you crazy. You never thought about any of that stuff before. That is what is so crazy to us WAW's......the LBH never seem to listen or pay any attention to our needs until they thought they would loose us......then it is like they hang onto every word and move we make and analize it. You have to relax and stay cool. You must GAL and start improving yourself. Take care of yourself. All this other advice people have given you is great and I can't really add anymore to that.

If I can help you in any way, please feel free to stop by my thread on the SSM forum.

Sandi2

[waw1978]

Tostada,

Just catching up on your thread. I started out feeling and saying many of the things your WAW is. I just need some more info before I kick in my 2 cents.

I know you mentioned that your W is way more social than you but your post doesn’t mention if you had accepted this part of her or if you tried to stifle it? Are you a jealous person? Have you not wanted your wife to have certain friends or do certain activities? Or given her a hard time for doing things that you found unacceptable?

Also you mentioned her reconnecting with old pals. If you had stifled her social ways in the past this may just be her way of trying to find herself again and reconnect with friends she may have let fall by the wayside because she was trying to please you. I know you expressed concern over why she is talking to every Sue, Sally & Pam she was ever friends with but maybe she really misses those people in her life. She may even be trying to GAL herself. Its not just LBS that need to do this. WAS need to do this too. Just doing something different usually helps any persons PMA.

Stop trying to figure out what is going on in her head. She is very confused and hurting, just as much as you. She may be saying that its over but she is giving signs that she still has doubts. Work the DB program. Focus on you. Stop trying to control her and the situation. Let her have space, as much space and time as possible. Do not mention divorce or lawyers that will do nothing but irritate the situation. Plus if you start making these idle threats you may find yourself getting a divorce and not just talking about one. If you do not want a D wait for her to make the advances in that direction and even then make it clear that’s not what you want or think would be right in your situation. I guess my main point before I get more info is to not give up. I know this is a sucky time and you are a mess but you need to DB and give your WAW time to see your 180’s. Plant the seeds of doubt. See what parts you played in this and do your best to work on them if you want to save the M. Your WAW will have to own up to her parts too but it’s got to start somewhere.

[sandi2]

WAW1978 made some very good points, tostada. Hope you will ponder on those things. The more information we have, the more we may be able to help you.

[Tostada]

Yes..my wife is more social than me. However, I never stifled this in her or suppressed her independence. If she wanted to go out with friends, I let her. I didnt mind that. Sometimes though I perhaps didnt want to go to every event. But, she wouldnt always go without me eiher. She did form a group of work friends that she spends time with. She has many friends and makes a big wide rotation through them. She's still rotating through them right now. Her friends dont really like being the 'hot' friend for awhile and then being put on the back burner. She's sort of flaky in this area. I have not chosen my wifes friends or activities. I think after the bomb, she was going out and drinking a lot, which was different behaviour for her. I did give her a hard time about that and let her know I was concerned about her drinking. That seems to have leveled off a bit. I see this as a good sign. I do see some changes in her that shes GAL. Such as working out, eating lunch out with friends every day, travelling to see friends, etc. We are not going to see each other hardly at all the next 12 days. She has agreed to go to IC. We are in upper 30's.

I got this email today; I think there are some positives in this as well as some negatives. I am not buying a house no matter what. I am trying to delay this move out scenario as long as possible.

"Hi - I hope you are having a nice time in xxx.I thought yesterday went well. I want you to know that I want you to be happy - your happiness is so important to me. It made my heart smile when you said you were going to work on you - that is exactly what you need to do, and me on me. If we are both happy and understand what makes us happy, we will be able to see what
the future holds for us. You deserve happiness and seeing you start to realize how much has been bottled up inside of you leads me to believe you will be great.

What are you thinking for a home? I really think it is smart to buy something - it is an investment no matter what. If you feel like you don't have the money, would you ever borrow from your parents? I know we have stock and you can use that. I am sure my dad would give you money - he wouldn't give me any, but would probably give you money. I want you close - for the sake of the kids. We should work on a plan and get it in place and communicate it to the kids. I also thought that you should take everything in the kids room so that they have familiar stuff in a new home. I can get them new stuff. You can also take anything you want with you. I will help in any way I can.I hope you know that. The bottom line, I don't hate you.I don't hate you at all.I care for you very much. But that doesn't translate to "in love", which I know you have heard.

Let me know what you are thinking.I am also going to try and get S11 signed up for something next week.I am calling the school to see what they have to offer as well.I can do the same for D8 but I am not as concerned about her right now. maybe when the move happens.Let me know what you think this is about both of us making decisions together.
Talk to you soon."

[Rob1231]

Wow, your W is all over the map with that email! Of course, that's pretty typical for an MLCer. As you said, there were some positives and some negatives here... the main thing to remember is the old saying - believe only half of what you see, and none of what you hear (or read!)

My favorite good line:

If we are both happy and understand what makes us happy, we will be able to see what
the future holds for us. You deserve happiness and seeing you start to realize how much has been bottled up inside of you leads me to believe you will be great.

That's a lot more upbeat than most of us get to hear at this stage of the game, take a little comfort from that but don't set your hopes on it. Just keep focusing on your own PMA and GALing.

And my favorite bad one:

Let me know what you are thinking. Let me know what you think this is about both of us making decisions together.

Yeah, SURE it is! As long as you both make decisions that follow her Whacked-Out Master Plan, that is!

Really, an R talk is still a bad idea - even if it's done over email. I would respond with a very brief email saying that you are doing your best to work on yourself, and you are pleased she understands how important that is. As far as moving out - be vague, be noncommittal, and stall, stall, stall!