muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

[Heimlich]

This is going to be hard. I've realized in reading your post, Nomo, that H wants out of the M, but he still wants me to be his confidant. He's always been a guy who lives in his head, for the most part, but when he needs a sounding board and friend, I'm it. So he's trying to transition into the same R without the M part.

If I stop engaging with him here, it'll be the end of our R, period. I'm not sure I'm ready to go there yet. Thoughts?

Well, Puddle, do you just want to be his friend? If so, engage him. If not, take yourself away and show him what Not Being Married to You means.

His "I fear for you" comment is at once condescending and caring. Can you respond with something to the effect of "I'm a big girl and can take care of myself"?

I'll see if I have any other epiphanies on the drive to Baltimore.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim!

Well, Puddle, do you just want to be his friend? If so, engage him. If not, take yourself away and show him what Not Being Married to You means.

I guess this is indeed what I have to figure out. Honestly, when I now think about him changing his mind, I'm filled with dread. I don't think it'll happen, but I'm already so tired of all this talking that I can't imagine actually working on the R now.

His "I fear for you" comment is at once condescending and caring. Can you respond with something to the effect of "I'm a big girl and can take care of myself"?

I was thinking something like, "That's gotta be really rough." He hates that kind of thing.

I'll see if I have any other epiphanies on the drive to Baltimore.

That'd be great! Have a safe drive.

Take care, all.

[Heimlich]

I got nothing much further. Sounds like you and Nomo have gotten to the point where you see more of your respective S's negatives than positives, which is helping you detach. I'm the reverse, I see more of my W's positives than negatives, which is doing the reverse for me.

Regarding talking to your H. Just a random thought that I'll throw out there. You keep telling your H how you feel and he's not getting it. What about one "big" talk, let it all hang out (since, unlike most of us here, your H wants to understand you -- I think.)? After that, leave him be -- "you're right, it won't work out. What are our next steps" and move the R from a M to a "business" relationship (ending the M).

As I mention, your H eludes my tiny understanding.

BD

[Nomopo]

Hi again Puddle!

Just in the new email today, H mentioned he thinks I'm still hanging on, especially when he sees things like that.

So, your H sees you hanging on as fighting him, pressure, etc. All the more reason to go full Homer. It may work. And if it doesn't, if he really is gone with no chance of coming back around, you'll be putting yourself in the best position to deal with that too by deatching, and letting go, and focusing on you.

I said I hadn't read the book yet, because I hadn't wanted to or felt the need. Not quite laughing it off...

Best you could do in the sitch. Forget it. Move on.

Yes, I'm still wearing mine. Haven't really considered taking it off yet, but that's coming.

Well, it's up to you. But he probably sees it as you hanging on. I decided to take mine off when I accepted that she isn't working on it, our current R really isn't a M at all, and though there may be some faint outside hope that she will change her mind and decide to "work on things," that chance was remote at best so I need to let go and move on in the meantime, rather than just waiting around for her to take me back.

And I have been saddened by my realization that the biggest element in my love for H was always that he loved me. Doesn't say a whole lot for me, but I think it's true.

That's probably true of many of us, if not most of us.

He just doesn't want to be married to my type anymore.

"I underdstand. You're right. I wouldn't either."

Funny! I've actually stopped responding to this, though your response is much better than my idea: "I get it. Could we please move on now?"

I like my response better than yours. Yours doesn't agree with him. Meaningful difference perhaps.

I've realized as much as H is trying to get me to understand, I'm doing the same. I want him to say, "Oh, I see. You're not afraid. You do get it," etc, and I need to shut up and show him. Sure, he's skeptical, but he's not going to get it any better or faster by my insisting it's true.

Fantastic insight Puddle! Focus on this and let it sink in if it hasn't already.

I also think, "So they'll get to deal with papa leaving a happy marriage. Yeah, that'll be much easier to swallow." Don't say that either.

You have a happy marriage?????

No, we don't, but we've always had a calm and content marriage, which, I think, looks happy enough to the kids.

Calm - yes. Content - no, at least not for him, and i suspect not for you either as you reflect on it more and more.

Who cares what he believes.

Clearly I do still, too much. I feel like I've let go of the M and the R, but I still want to be understood. Sound like anyone we all know?

We understand you Puddle.

He wants so badly to control him. Try not to worry about this. Just focus on you.

I assume you mean to control me. Funny slip.

Yes, I meant you.

I've realized in reading your post, Nomo, that H wants out of the M, but he still wants me to be his confidant. He's always been a guy who lives in his head, for the most part, but when he needs a sounding board and friend, I'm it. So he's trying to transition into the same R without the M part.

If I stop engaging with him here, it'll be the end of our R, period. I'm not sure I'm ready to go there yet. Thoughts?

My W is doing a very similar thing. There are parts to our R that she values and wants to save. Just this morning, after JC when we were talking, she said that she is scared she will never find someone else who thinks as much like her as I do. We are always on the same page on analyzing situations and people, and always have the same read/take. (Side note: the obvious exception to this is our M - ha! Not on the same page there. Wish I had said I am right there too, but she just is fighting it. Tee hee.)

Anyway, I think you have to take some time to decide what you want in a R with your H if a D becomes reality. Take some time to contemplate that. And even after you decide, you just can't snap your fingers and make it happen. There is grieving and healing to be done. Might be able to do some of that alone, but probably have to do a lot of that apart from each other. I believe, if W and I divorce (which looks 99.99% likely), that I would like for W and I to be true friends. That's my goal, and I think it is my W's goal. But it ain't going to happen overnight. There's too much "stuff" there between us still. We have to get down the road aways post-D for that to really be possible. FWIW.

Do you really think if you stop engaging him now it will be the end of your R period, forever? Why can't he understand that you may need some time away from him, away from engaging, to transition to this new stage, with the hope that you two can build whatever post-M relationship you want together down the road. And in the meantime try to be friendly and the best co-parents you can be?

And no, it's focusing on keeping H happy with me.

You don't own his happiness. He does!!!!!

Now let's see what you think of this one. The email I haven't responded to includes: "I've been grumpy at home, and it's mostly b/c I am not handling work well. Or my distress over what I am doing to you doesn't stay home. I fear for you, I fear for the kids. I question where self-interest becomes selfishness. I question my motive. I am sad for this unwanted epiphany. I am sad for your grief."

None of which requires a response. Is there any response I can give that's friendly and helpful and has nothing to do with me?

If you're going to respond, try to follow the IMAGO dialogue technique: listen/mirror, validate and empathize. So, somehting like this maybe: "H, I read your email. I just want you to know that it makes sense to me. I understand what you're saying, and I can imagine how hard all of that must be on you. Hang in there. P"

I kind of like that. What do you think?

He also says since he doesn't see "enough of the opposite" he assumes I'm fearful, e.g., if I weren't fearful I'd say, "Okay, let's do x and y and talk about z." I haven't done that because he's driving this train, and I'm content with the way things are (time- and money-wise, for example). I think for this one I don't need to respond at all? I want to show my lack of fear, but I don't feel like I have to say, "Okay, let's get those papers drawn up."

Do you really have a lack of fear??? Honestly.

Again, if you're going to respond (and I like you and more reluctant on this), I might suggest something like this: "H, I've been thinking about this, and you're right. There is a part of me that is fearful. These are big changes, and there is some uncertainty about what the future brings. But I want you to know that there is another part of me, that has accepted where we are, the cards that have been dealt to us, and that part is letting go of the M. And I have let go more and more each day. That part of me is not fearful, but rather strangely ok. That part of me is strong and confident, and knows that no matter what I am going to be ok, and the kids will be ok. In fact, I will be better than ok, because I understand that I control my own happiness. And I am beginning to focus on making changes in myself and my life for me. So I don't want you to worry about me. I understand that you need to do what you need to do to be happy, and I am focusing on the things I can control, which is me and my future, and I will be fine."

I dunno how I feel about that. It was pretty much off the top of my head. What do you think? Others? Probably too much. But, hey, if you want to engage him . . .

Re my statement that he was more forthcoming last night about his reasons/feelings about how he got here, he says "In part my misery comes from having wanted understanding, and feeling I've said what I said before." He wants to know what was different last night.

To these sorts of things, I would simply say I understand what your saying. I understand what you're feeling. (Note - you don't have to say he is right if that is too hard for you. Just that you understand intellectually and/or emotionally. Let me know if you want to discuss this technique more if you;re not comfortable with it.)

Re him not understanding what's going on with me, I said something to the effect of, look, even if you were in my skin and understood me perfectly, it wouldn't change anything, so let's move on. (Unsaid: Let's please move on. I'm so tired of talking about it.) He said "Well - I am always interested, long as you are. But am fine with moving on. I am interested b/c I want to hear all the "yeah but"s - this is not a flip decision and I am over it."

In other words, he wants to argue. I don't see how that does either of you any good. I would ignore/avoid this.

This is what I meant when I said he still wants me to be the one to mull things over with. I'm not sure I can do that acting like he's a friend talking about a sitch with someone else, but if I could, I think that would be ideal here. Any thoughts?

Mull over - BS. In his mind, he is 100% done. He wants to argue and convince you. You can do that, or you can drop the rope by agreeing with him or just not going there.

That's pretty much it. This is grueling.

Yep. Sorry. (((((Puddel))))) You sound like you need a ski trip.

Take care P!
Nomo

[Puddle]

Hey Heim!

Thanks for the idea of having one big talk. I don't want to, though, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference anyway, so I'm not going to do it.

Thankfully I just got an email from H---hadn't responded to his last one---in which he said basically, never mind, don't respond, his fault for bringing it up all the time, sorry, we'll all be fine, let's move on. Major relief!

He also said "It's [my] 'fault'" (yes, he put quotes around "fault") for not wanting to work on the M.

But anyway, I guess we're both tired of this. And he's going to tell his folks while they're here, which is going to suck. Has to happen sometime, though, so it may as well be now. They're going to be heartbroken. My MIL was just talking about all the big birthdays we have to celebrate coming up---my 40th next year, then her 60th, etc. Sigh.

So, your H sees you hanging on as fighting him, pressure, etc. All the more reason to go full Homer. It may work. And if it doesn't, if he really is gone with no chance of coming back around, you'll be putting yourself in the best position to deal with that too by deatching, and letting go, and focusing on you.

Still don't know what "full Homer" means, but I'm certainly letting go. Feels very much like giving up, but I'll keep the focus on me. I'm not expecting anything to "work" anymore, don't even feel like I want it to. Hey, I may get kicked off the boards!

Well, it's up to you. But he probably sees it as you hanging on. I decided to take mine off when I accepted that she isn't working on it, our current R really isn't a M at all, and though there may be some faint outside hope that she will change her mind and decide to "work on things," that chance was remote at best so I need to let go and move on in the meantime, rather than just waiting around for her to take me back.

I guess after we tell the kids I'll take it off. Sad. But okay.

Fantastic insight Puddle! Focus on this and let it sink in if it hasn't already.

It's sinking. And since I really feel it, I think it'll keep on sinking in further.

Calm - yes. Content - no, at least not for him, and i suspect not for you either as you reflect on it more and more.

I was talking purely from the kids' perspective. I know I wasn't perfectly content or happy with the M, and neither was H.

Clearly I do still, too much. I feel like I've let go of the M and the R, but I still want to be understood. Sound like anyone we all know?

We understand you Puddle.

Thank goodness. It's helped so much, especially in the very early days, when I'd daily ask myself, "Am I nuts? Is it me?" So thanks.

My W is doing a very similar thing. There are parts to our R that she values and wants to save. Just this morning, after JC when we were talking, she said that she is scared she will never find someone else who thinks as much like her as I do. We are always on the same page on analyzing situations and people, and always have the same read/take. (Side note: the obvious exception to this is our M - ha! Not on the same page there. Wish I had said I am right there too, but she just is fighting it. Tee hee.)

Oh no you don't! And Nomo, I'm impressed that you're still able to do the JC thing with W. Does she know about the woman you're seeing?

Anyway, I think you have to take some time to decide what you want in a R with your H if a D becomes reality. Take some time to contemplate that.

This is the next thing I'm going to be thinking about.

And even after you decide, you just can't snap your fingers and make it happen. There is grieving and healing to be done. Might be able to do some of that alone, but probably have to do a lot of that apart from each other.

Yes, I think I'm going to need a good bit of space. It seems like H doesn't, yet anyway. He made a joke yesterday about moving out and mentioned something I said, oh, two days after the bomb: Who the hell would date a man who's living with his W and kids? I still didn't laugh (it was by email, thankfully)---I'm not that far over it yet---and I'll need some space from him to get there.

I believe, if W and I divorce (which looks 99.99% likely), that I would like for W and I to be true friends. That's my goal, and I think it is my W's goal. But it ain't going to happen overnight. There's too much "stuff" there between us still. We have to get down the road aways post-D for that to really be possible. FWIW.

I think I want that, too, but I realize I also want H to feel the loss of me, and that's about hurting him. Not a true friend, yet.

Do you really think if you stop engaging him now it will be the end of your R period, forever?

I think it would cause serious and possibly irreparable harm to our R down the line. Leaving him alone in his time of need? Sending him to someone else to bounce ideas off of? I'm not sure. But it doesn't really matter, because all the time I spend thinking about him and the R is time I'm not spending thinking about me and what I need, and that's not good for me. So it's a chance I'll have to take.

Why can't he understand that you may need some time away from him, away from engaging, to transition to this new stage, with the hope that you two can build whatever post-M relationship you want together down the road. And in the meantime try to be friendly and the best co-parents you can be?

Maybe he's getting that now, a bit (see his latest email, above). And I'll have to define my own space and tell him what I need. I think he'll understand the idea of transition. And if he doesn't, well, he doesn't.

I kind of like that. What do you think?

I think I'm glad I don't have to draft a response! But yes, I liked yours. Reflection and validation drive him around the bend.

Do you really have a lack of fear??? Honestly.

I'm not free of fear, but I'm muuuuuch less fearful than I was two months ago, so compared to that, I'm hardly afraid at all.

I dunno how I feel about that. It was pretty much off the top of my head. What do you think? Others? Probably too much. But, hey, if you want to engage him . . .

Again, glad I don't have to. But I like it, and if we were talking face to face it would probably be okay; too long for an email.

In other words, he wants to argue. I don't see how that does either of you any good. I would ignore/avoid this.

Like him, I'm skeptical that he'll keep up with his decision to stop bringing it up. I don't want to argue anymore, though.

Mull over - BS. In his mind, he is 100% done. He wants to argue and convince you.

You may be right, and he may be partly trying to cement the decision for himself. I think he wants to be sure he's covered all the angles, thought of all the snags, etc. I don't have to be the one for him to do that with, though.

You sound like you need a ski trip.

I am so there. You better be, too.

So H says he's asking around for a lawyer referral for us both. If we're doing this together, wouldn't a mediator be a good way to go?

Thanks. Take care, everyone.

[new_attitude]

Hi Puddle!
I'm just getting caught up on your sitch- wow, lots to absorb! My initial impression is that you need to back off of the R talks, even though he's bringing it up. It sounds like he really likes to talk about things, almost like he's trying to convince himself of his feelings or that he's doing the right thing (especially when he says that he doesn't want to be married to you any more, sheesh!)

Have you always had serious discussions over email? If so, maybe do a 180 and tell him that you can't discuss these things in that way? In fact, wouldn't asking for a reprieve from R talks and not engaging him be a serious 180 for you?

BTW, what is this Homer book I keep hearing about? Are we reverting to reading the Classics now?

[Heimlich]

Puddle,

You two are on generally civil terms, I'd vote you try mediation first. MUCH cheaper. Plus, if you think both of you will be fair, dueling lawyers just makes the same settlement more expensive.

I think it would cause serious and possibly irreparable harm to our R down the line. Leaving him alone in his time of need? Sending him to someone else to bounce ideas off of? I'm not sure. But it doesn't really matter, because all the time I spend thinking about him and the R is time I'm not spending thinking about me and what I need, and that's not good for me. So it's a chance I'll have to take.

I've done a little thinking about this. I'd like to be my W's friend and be friendly, but there are things I reserve to share only with those closest to me -- and that's my W. If she doesn't want to be married to me, she doesn't get that part of me. Your H seems to be still trying to use you as an emotional crutch in some ways -- either from habit because, as you've said, he lives in his own mind or because he expects you to help him sort through his feelings. While you should give of yourself if he's willing to work on things with you, seems to me you have to be cruel to be kind. He doesn't want to be married to you. Maybe it's time to show him the consequences of his actions. Life isn't a sitcom. Being best friends with your ex probably just doesn't happen all that often in the real world. Friends, sure. Confidants, eh, maybe not so much.

Not sure that's the right thing for you to do, but makes some sense from this coast.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey NA! Good to hear from you. I've lost track of you over in the other forum, but I'll catch up.

We've usually had discussions face to face, though we've always done best on the phone, long distance. This email thing has worked well for us in this sitch, though. But as you can see, we're both weary of the R talk. Nice to be in the same place, for once.

Heim, I hear what you're saying, and I kinda feel the same way. Though I recognize that that's bitterness on my part, or it feels like it. I don't want to withdraw from H with the attitude, "There, see how that feels? Not so nice, is it?"

If I do, I want it to be from a position of pure self-interest (not the kind of self-interest that comes from hoping to win him back), because it's the best thing for me to do for me. Thankfully, I feel like I have some time right now, that there's a lull after all the eternal R talking where I can figure it out.

We just talked a bit about telling the ILs, and turns out H's hesitation to tell MIL was about protecting ME from her questions instead of the kids from her reaction, which is how I'd read his hesitation.

This tells me that H still doesn't really believe that I'm letting go, still thinks I'm afraid, and in a way is trying to shield me. I think my reaction, which was absolutely honest and immediate, probably helped my case a bit. I said, "Huh? Oh, geez, I'm fine, it doesn't matter to me." I hope I surprised him a bit. But really, I don't care. He'll get it when he does, or not, but either way, I'll be fine.

Yeah, Heim, I think a mediator is the way to go. And we need some good number-crunching. I think we'll both be surprised about what a D will do to our finances, but we need to know. Ideally I think we'd stay married on paper, and maybe we'll end up going that way, who knows.

Thanks, everyone. Take care.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

just sending some hugs your way! ((((puddle))))

outa town for now, but wanted to say hi

[Puddle]

Hey, thanks ST! Good to hear from you. Hope you're having a good trip.

I'm out of town, too, with the kids, H, and his folks. So far it's been pretty darned awkward, and H hasn't even told them yet. He's under the weather---not a pretty sight at the best of times---and my MIL is starting to ask me what's up with him. I'm doing my best, smile, "Hmm, why don't you ask him?"

H is putting the kids down, and I'm half-hoping when he's done he'll go over to talk to them.

You know, it's really hard not to spend time thinking about the R and H and his reactions and my this and his that while we're stuck in a room together. Four more days to go! : )

Hope you're all doing well. Take care.