Down and out...need hope.

[DownNotOut...yet]

It's hard to believe I'm really going through this.

Ain't that the truth. I am feeling for you brother. I will be pulling for you tonight.

If you have time, you should visit some other threads and ask for those folks to look at your thread. Maybe you could get some other perspectives aside form just mine. Might help you get your game face on for tonight and the future. I recommend Rob1231 in the piecing forum because he is so positive and has had a lot of success. I would also recommend WAW1978 in this forum because she is a she and she is candid. Her female and WAW perspective might help you. There are lots of other great helpful people here but maybe start with them.

[Rob1231]

Hi t, Dropping in as requested...

Of course I want it sooner than now. My clock is racing and I think her's is just plodding along.

Whoa, buddy, cool your jets a bit here. Remember, the absolute best friends you have right now are TIME and PATIENCE. An MLC does not get "all better" overnight. You have time to work through this - use it!

I am doing my best to treat her as a friend, but she's knows better. Is it bad to move in for a hug now and then? or is that considered pursuing?

Yes...tonight is the dinner. is it bad to put ILY on the card? is that pursuing? How can I do a 180 on the card? that's an interesting thought. I assume she's thinking shes going to get this big long letter in a card. Is a short 'happy birthday' kosher?

A rule of thumb might be - if you have to ask if something is pursuing, then you probably already know the answer.

Take your focus off of her and get it squarely on yourself - that's the way to make this stuff really work. MAKE A LIST, POST IT HERE, AND LIVE UP TO IT: What are you doing to Get A Life and to keep up your Positive Mental Attitude?

she told her mother last night that she wants me to go out and buy a house. That seems a bit more permanent than I was considering or hoping for. I also believe her divorced nut-job friend referred her to a lawyer. Everything in our situation is starting to mirror the sitch friend.

so..yes, I am in the LBS fog. It's so thick right now. It's hard to believe I'm really going through this.

MLCers will spew all kinds of garbage at you. They will cook up insane Master Plans for how the D is supposed to proceed - often with the whacky idea that you will follow along with these plans willingly because "you will see the light that they are right and the M is doomed, doomed, doomed."

Now here's the trick - you have to drag your feet and refuse to go along, without a big heated confrontation. If you say "Hell no I'm not moving out!" then you just fire her up more. Instead, just nod and smile your PMA-ful smile, but don't lift one finger to help with her craziness. Drag your feet and stall, stall, stall. Do NOT move to an apartment, and do NOT buy a new house.

Make her do the hard work, if it is going to happen at all. Why do I say that? Remember - she's more confused and screwed up than you are. She is presenting things as "hard cold unchangeable fact" - but they are not. Do NOT buy into her insanity!

[Tostada]

thanks for posting..I love your support.

we have counseling tomorrow night. the separation idea is going to come up and I'm sure it's going to be a big negotiation. My ploy to delay is to say i need to speak to a lawyer to discuss this some more before I commit to anything. Is that a 180? Otherwise, how do I drag my feet?

I'm going to work on building my GAL goal list. I think it's correct, once I show this and GAL to her, I think she'll change.

[Rob1231]

thanks for posting..I love your support.

we have counseling tomorrow night. the separation idea is going to come up and I'm sure it's going to be a big negotiation. My ploy to delay is to say i need to speak to a lawyer to discuss this some more before I commit to anything. Is that a 180? Otherwise, how do I drag my feet?

I wouldn't even promise to see a lawyer - that's still WAY too compliant. What you need to do is buy yourself some time. Here's the approach I took, which worked out pretty well. I said...

Hey, this is all moving way, way, WAY too fast for me. You dropped this bomb on me just a few weeks ago and now you expect me to be all happy and With The Program and ready to move out of the house and head straight downtown to the lawyer. My head is still spinning and I can't just get over 13 years of marriage and loving you like THAT. I need to work through this, to process it, to understand what went wrong, and to understand why you think it can't be saved. Someday, I might even agree with you that splitting up is the best answer - I just don't know right now. If I get to that point, I'll go file myself. But right now, I do NOT believe in my heart that divorce is the answer, and it's unfair of you to expect me to do these things on such short notice. You say you have felt this way for years - well, maybe you have, but it's all new to me and I am not ready for ANY of it.

Now, the next thing that will happen is she will say, "OK, fine, how long do you need? 'Cause I'm not waiting for years for you to come around!" The best answer - refuse to give a specific answer. How could you possibly know how long it will take for you to come over to the Dark Side? Stall, stall, stall!

This approach (which was said with complete sincerity - I meant every word) bought me the time to get out of my own depression and get my a$$ into DBing High Gear. Good luck!

I'm going to work on building my GAL goal list. I think it's correct, once I show this and GAL to her, I think she'll change.

Let's get one thing straight - your goal here is not to get her to change. She may come around, but unfortunately that is really out of your control.

In the meantime, your goal is for YOU to change. Hopefully, you will become a better, happier person in a better, happier marriage. If not, you will still become a better, happier person who did their absolute best to save their marriage, but it was just out of your control. I know that's not what you want to hear right now, but trust me on this - working on YOU is the single best way to improve your chances of saving your MARRIAGE.

[Tostada]

well, we had her bday dinner tonight and I'm not feeling to positive about it. first, we get in the elevator and she makes sure shes standing completely on the other side of the elevator from me. then at dinner, she chooses a seat in which I cannot be very close. ok..those things I guess I slightly understand. dinner part was fine, but I'm irritated with the presents part. all the presents and cards from family were opened for all to see, cards passed around, and read. not mine. mine was top secret, read below the table, put in purse, and I get a quiet thank you. that's all I hear about it all night...nothing more. no hugs, no other thank yous, zippo. she was also busy texting and checking vm at dinner. I can't believe how rude she has become. I guess its the waw "me,me,me" syndrome. then after dinner, she could use help carrying some stuff to car, but won't let me help her. one of the things that came up in counseling was I didn't help out enough. now it seems when I offer or try to help, she won't even let me. there was also a quote when the kids were eating desert.."they don't usually get dessert at MY HOUSE"...I added that they don't get it at MY HOUSE either. how rude is that?

anyway, its tough being positive when she shows no interest at all. doesn't ask questions of me, zero interest in my day or life right now.

we have counseling tomorrow. its going to be all about some sort of separation agreement. I don't really consider that counseling, that's mediation. I want no part of that. and, shes leaving immediately after to meet up with friends and go drinking. now that's classy. kids will be w a sitter as I have to drive out of town. they will again be w sitter next day because shes going out to dinner again. then, shes going out of town for 6 days. I don't want my kids raised by a sitter, thus, I don't want to leave this house. anyway, I'm pretty frustrated w her. this isn't the person I have been w for 16yrs. I haven't told her any of this. kept my mouth shut. no R talk at all.

I feel like were trending downhill every week. more "cold" treatment, much less physical contact, and less and less social contact. anyway, I guess I just really have to deatch the best I can, work on myself, and hope time and patience pays off.

[Tostada]

ok..snuck into bed w my wife late last night. performed a lttle magic that I think she enjoyed. sounded like it if you get my drift. however it was all for her as she showed no interest in me, no touching etc. afterward she said ahe wasn't sure that was a good idea because "it will just make it harder on you". I replied, "if it gets to that point, it will be hard on me anyway, but maybe this will help make it harder for you to get there"...I hated it after I said it. I'm sure I screwed up a good opportunity to DB there. but, I really wanted to ask "what is IT?"

I ended all this w a quick hug/kiss, wished her a happy bday and went back to bed.

I'm sure today she will try to distance herself again from me letting mme know that last night meant nothing.

I thought it was agood opportunity to get a little "close" time with her. I hope its not a big backslide. Positive I guess is she did let me touch her. she could have asked me to leave. though the 'it will be harder on me' comment is tough. I will do my best to let that slide off my back.

[Ronda]

well, tostada, I know from experience that the sex doesn't help. I did the same thing and the same thing that happened to you, happened to me. It was all about him and he did nothing for me. That was before I read the DB. Now, if you haven't read it get busy! I started the program 3 weeks ago and have kept my distance-talking with him only when necessary, letting him do what he wants and not asking questions, just plain getting on with my life.

Guess what, today he was actually pleasant (almost like before this MLC) to me and actually told me about something that happened to him yesterday, PLUS he initiated this conversation. Now this is huge, because he stopped talking to me several months ago after he moved out for a few weeks. He moved back in but into the spare bedroom because our DD was extremely p!ssed at him and let him know it.

So, let it be all about her for a while. That is done me a world of good. I feel like we're heading in a better direction right now, although, I'm ready for the backslide at the same time. I read, and re-read, and re-read the MLC section of the book and then go back to the cheeseless tunnels and read them. Stop pursuing! The more I pursued, the madder he got at me and the further away, too. I was pushing him away by pursuing. I ran the whole gammet. I took out the wedding pics, I pulled out the hundreds or cards and letters that we had saved all of these years, I begged, I cojoled, I threatened, I tried to make him feel guilty. Nothing worked.

Another book that I read that has helped a great deal is by Dr. Harriet Lerner. The art of conversation (this isn't the exact name) It has been really good in helping me choose my words and the conversation wisely.

HTH, Hang in there,
Ronda

[Rob1231]

Ronda is right, you are PURSUING LIKE CRAZY. Look at it this way - your W is temporarily insane. You are proceeding as if you believe that you can 'talk sense' into her - you can't, she is a nut case.

Don't set yourself up with expectations of what she will or won't do - of COURSE she will be rude and disrespectful, of COURSE she will not reciprocate in bed, of COURSE she will tell you it's all for your own good, and of COURSE she will see counseling as all about pursuing her MLC Master Plan. You have got to stop expecting anything different from her, because for the time being you are NOT going to get it. Think in terms of her as having been abducted and replaced by an alien - that mindset really works.

Instead, focus on yourself and what you can do to be happy - without requiring one iota of help from W. So... where's that list?

[Tostada]

O.K..I dont seem to very good at this not pursuing idea. perhaps that would be the best 180 i could come up with. Nows a good time to start as we wont be around each other much for the 14 days.

so...here are my GAL ideas.

* join a workout class and workout 3 days per week.
* do more activities with my friends
* do more things than with just a couple friends
* Do fun things with kids; movies, sports, shows
* start reading profusely
* take dog on walk 5 days per week. involve kids.


here are some goals;
* stop pursuing
* practice DB as much as possible. this means no R talk, no future talk, and GAL.
* stay in house
* be very helpful around house
* change 'time' routine at house. leave early and be gone when she comes home.
* have wife give me a kiss or hug by Thanksgiving
* stop probing wife for info
* try to have PMA as much as possible
* exude total patience, no panic.

[Rob1231]

O.K..I dont seem to very good at this not pursuing idea. perhaps that would be the best 180 i could come up with. Nows a good time to start as we wont be around each other much for the 14 days.

so...here are my GAL ideas.

* join a workout class and workout 3 days per week.
* do more activities with my friends
* do more things than with just a couple friends
* Do fun things with kids; movies, sports, shows
* start reading profusely
* take dog on walk 5 days per week. involve kids.

That's a great start!

When I am working on goals like this (and I still do - I treat this as a "live life better forever" program, not a "live life better just until the crisis is over" program) I find it helps to be as specific as possible. So, Join a workout class and workout 3 days per week is terrific - so specific that you can look back at the end of the week and say to yourself Did I accomplish what I set out to do? See if you can get more specific with some of the others - what kind of activities, how often, with who? This is just to help motivate yourself and get you to really take that action!

here are some goals;
* stop pursuing
* practice DB as much as possible. this means no R talk, no future talk, and GAL.
* stay in house
* be very helpful around house
* change 'time' routine at house. leave early and be gone when she comes home.
* have wife give me a kiss or hug by Thanksgiving
* stop probing wife for info
* try to have PMA as much as possible
* exude total patience, no panic.

I like every one of those (well, I admit I wasn't sure what stay in house meant exactly, but that's OK ) - except one of them.

I'll bet you already know which one, too. Have wife give me a kiss or hug by Thanksgiving Now, of course I understand that you hope for this, and I hope it for you too. But for the time being, you want to focus your goals and your energy on the things that YOU can control. This one gives control of your "success or failure" away to someone else - don't do that! OWN your success, and own your happiness.

And the good news is, if you do these things and turn yourself into a happy, PMA-exuding, confident, living life to the fullest kinda guy - you will be a LOT more attractive to your wife than a panicking, depressed, dependent, victim kinda guy!