muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

[Puddle]

Hey Nomo!

Hello Puddle!!!!

H says, "Where are the towels?" I direct him to my bag and he pulls them out ... along with my copy of Homer---big fat "Stop Your Divorce!"---which falls face up on the floor of the tent.

Did he say anything? Nothing you can do about it. Laugh it off and let it go.

Just in the new email today, H mentioned he thinks I'm still hanging on, especially when he sees things like that. I said I hadn't read the book yet, because I hadn't wanted to or felt the need. Not quite laughing it off...

Child and I snuggle into H's bag, H says he's sleeping in the car.

Your H strikes me as childish and immature. Does that sound right? Also, very largely self absorbed/interested.

Funny, I've never thought of him as childish and immature before, but some lately. Self-absorbed, yes, especially lately.

H is again not wearing his ring.

Are you wearing yours? I've stopped wearing mine and I find it liberating. I don't feel M'd at all. W has had no commitment to me since Jan. when she declared she could no longer work on this M, and I have given up working in the marriage in the past few months too, so I don't see why I ought to wear it.

Yes, I'm still wearing mine. Haven't really considered taking it off yet, but that's coming. Had a moment of levity with H today when I walked in the bathroom and found him struggling with soap trying to get his ring back on before work. I just laughed.

H stays on his own, away from the group (there were about 70 of us), for the most part, which is typical.

Again, what a great guy. Sheesh. What are his positive qualities again?

Ironically, I've always considered his self-reflection positive, and he's the least defensive person I know (except lately, though still less than most people). But of the things that matter to me, he doesn't have many of those qualities lately. And I have been saddened by my realization that the biggest element in my love for H was always that he loved me. Doesn't say a whole lot for me, but I think it's true.

And when I think of her sitch, I try to think of it with someone else (not me), and I actually feel sorry for her. Weird, huh? Makes it easier to be nice to her almost all of the time.

Not weird at all. This makes sense to me, and I'll try it out, thanks.

- H says at least four times "I don't want to be married to you." Says this is his starting point, this feeling he has that he can't shake, is unwavering in his conviction.

Wonder why he keeps telling you. Is he trying to convince you or himself?

I honestly think he's trying to convince me. I think he still doesn't believe I get it, really get it.

- When I ask how he explains that feeling to himself, he says there are different types of people, and H, the king of analogies, says a cat person can't become a dog person.

If I were you, I'd stop asking questions. Just agree.

I'd never asked him before how he explains any of this. I don't understand it any better now, and I won't ask again, but I wanted to hear what he thinks.

Again mentions the fact that I have a "big ball of fear" that affects my reactions to situations.

Huh? Whatever. Just agree. "You're right H. I wouldn't want to be married to me either. This is impossible. It will never work. Smile"

Hee hee. I've been thinking about a possible conversation in the future, where H and I sit down with his folks to discuss this. (This probably won't happen, by the way.) I was imagining what would happen if his parents freak out and start demanding to know why he'd do this, and I jump in playing the devil's advocate: "He'd be unhappy if he stayed, can't you see that? What else can he do???? It's the only option!" I think it'd be quite funny.

He just doesn't want to be married to my type anymore.

"I underdstand. You're right. I wouldn't either."

Funny! I've actually stopped responding to this, though your response is much better than my idea: "I get it. Could we please move on now?"

He really is controlling, isn't he. He absolutely wants to control you through all of this.

Yes. He's desperately trying to get me to understand, perhaps so I can let him off the hook, perhaps so I can explain it to him. But yes, utterly controlling. And I often take the bait.

Next time, I'd say I'm not angry. I have accepted that this M is over. You're right. It will never work. It's impossible. And I'm fine and moving on too.

I'm going to do this. There will be a next time, I'm sure.

- Asks how I see him and what he's doing, what I think's going on. I said I think he's unhappy. He says he's not unhappy, wasn't unhappy in our M, but will be unhappy if he stays in this R. Not sure he'll find happiness, it's scary going out and being alone, but it's what he feels he needs to do.

Does he always disagree with everything you say? Isn't that frustrating? I am frustrated just reading those sentences.

He's very, very into semantics, so if I don't get *exactly* what he's saying, he'll keep explaining and arguing. Yes, it's exhausting.

Sounds like you engaged in the R talk too much to me? Do you think so now?

I absolutely engaged. And yes, it was probably too much. I've realized as much as H is trying to get me to understand, I'm doing the same. I want him to say, "Oh, I see. You're not afraid. You do get it," etc, and I need to shut up and show him. Sure, he's skeptical, but he's not going to get it any better or faster by my insisting it's true.

- Re the kids, says since we trade off nights and weekend days anyway (which we often do), it's not like their schedule will be too different. If we present his apartment as a "second place," and he comes over in the mornings and evenings to see them, he thinks they shouldn't feel too much impact. We haven't been fighting and screaming at each other, which is where "the real damage begins."

Actually, this makles some sense to me. Is it really utterly delusional to you? I mean it will have an effect no doubt. Damage will be done. But they're not doomed at all.

I think H is minimizing the impact this will have on them, but again, it doesn't matter what I think or say. Today in my last email to him, where I was finally saying pretty directly what I think without worrying about how he responds, I said something like, "The kids will experience it however they do, and we'll deal with that." His response was, "That goes without saying," but that he hopes we'll deal *together* instead of just him (??), and that it'll take a lot of courage on my part to not blame him, or even look like I'm blaming him.

I guess I haven't said to him clearly that I won't do that, and that concern is legitimate. I'll be clear, and brief, about not blaming him to them.

I also think, "So they'll get to deal with papa leaving a happy marriage. Yeah, that'll be much easier to swallow." Don't say that either.

You have a happy marriage?????

No, we don't, but we've always had a calm and content marriage, which, I think, looks happy enough to the kids.

No matter how you said it, it was pressure/guilt, etc. I happen to agree with you, but there is no way H sees that like you and me. So, why did you say it? What was your goal?

No good reason, in retrospect, like so much else I say to him...

Says he feels awkward being out late, feels like he's sneaking into his parents house, wouldn't want to have friends over. I say he's been clear with me, is an adult, and I'm not uncomfortable with his late hours, friends over, etc. Ask him again why he thinks he's uncomfortable, he can't answer.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me think you engaged too much in the R talk.

You're probably right. This is the kind of reasoning that can lead my H, the non-defensive guy, to some insight about what he's doing. May not help. I think it lead directly to this today: "I think in part I am realizing that my decision is one I made (no team effort) and that I need to be very clear in terms of what I want and need. I have been waiting to work that out with you, but see that that's both unfair and silly." Or maybe not.

Last: The first night of the camping trip (when H wasn't there) I had a dream that we were back together, we ML and it was great. Then the next day (in the dream) he was his usual grumpy, discontent self and I thought, "It'll always be this way."

Hmmm.

You're detaching.

Yeah, I think this is it. In my dream, as in my waking hours, this was a sad realization.

Oh yeah. I'm sure it's hard to believe I'm "letting go" when he sees things like that.

Who cares what he believes.

Clearly I do still, too much. I feel like I've let go of the M and the R, but I still want to be understood. Sound like anyone we all know?

He wants so badly to control him. Try not to worry about this. Just focus on you.

I assume you mean to control me. Funny slip.

Stop fueling the R talk. Just tell him you're fine and moving on. These are the cards life has dealt you, and you will be fine.

Yes, must do this.

You're a glutton for this R talk, aren't you?

To be honest, now that I don't care as much about the M, it's kind of fun. We've always had great discussions about this kind of thing, analyzing, taking apart, etc. Now it's just about us, which is weird, but still interesting. So in a way, it is enjoyable. Must stop, though.

Yes, he's a schmuck. If you really left it up to him you wouldn't have said that.

I agree. Wish I hadn't said that. My last email was very direct about what I think, and it felt good, but I should've let that one go.

Let him be. He says he doesn't want to be married. Just listen, validate/agree, etc. Stop offering solutions. Stop offering opinions, views, thoughts. Stop asking questions. Focus on you and your kids.

This is going to be hard. I've realized in reading your post, Nomo, that H wants out of the M, but he still wants me to be his confidant. He's always been a guy who lives in his head, for the most part, but when he needs a sounding board and friend, I'm it. So he's trying to transition into the same R without the M part.

If I stop engaging with him here, it'll be the end of our R, period. I'm not sure I'm ready to go there yet. Thoughts?

He says I can't be done with the M if I want him to stay in the house.

Man, something tells me if you went full Homer, he'd freak out. Just a hunch.

Okay, now I have to read it.

Ok. Not bad. It's going to take a while to sink in. Hint: The more you really feel it, the more he'll really believe. They can often (usually) see through the facades.

Yes, I think that's true, and I'm feeling it more and more, so that should be okay.

Who cares what it sounds like to him? Focus on you, what you want, etc. You don't owe him anything. His whole m.o. here is to get you to give him what he wants. Example: He says your emails don't have enough emotion for me. Then you try to send him a more emotional email. Is that focusing on you? Detach more!

See above re if I fail to engage here. And no, it's focusing on keeping H happy with me.

Thanks again, Nomo, this was very helpful indeed.

Now let's see what you think of this one. The email I haven't responded to includes: "I've been grumpy at home, and it's mostly b/c I am not handling work well. Or my distress over what I am doing to you doesn't stay home. I fear for you, I fear for the kids. I question where self-interest becomes selfishness. I question my motive. I am sad for this unwanted epiphany. I am sad for your grief."

None of which requires a response. Is there any response I can give that's friendly and helpful and has nothing to do with me?

He also says since he doesn't see "enough of the opposite" he assumes I'm fearful, e.g., if I weren't fearful I'd say, "Okay, let's do x and y and talk about z." I haven't done that because he's driving this train, and I'm content with the way things are (time- and money-wise, for example). I think for this one I don't need to respond at all? I want to show my lack of fear, but I don't feel like I have to say, "Okay, let's get those papers drawn up."

Re my statement that he was more forthcoming last night about his reasons/feelings about how he got here, he says "In part my misery comes from having wanted understanding, and feeling I've said what I said before." He wants to know what was different last night.

Re him not understanding what's going on with me, I said something to the effect of, look, even if you were in my skin and understood me perfectly, it wouldn't change anything, so let's move on. (Unsaid: Let's please move on. I'm so tired of talking about it.) He said "Well - I am always interested, long as you are. But am fine with moving on. I am interested b/c I want to hear all the "yeah but"s - this is not a flip decision and I am over it."

This is what I meant when I said he still wants me to be the one to mull things over with. I'm not sure I can do that acting like he's a friend talking about a sitch with someone else, but if I could, I think that would be ideal here. Any thoughts?

That's pretty much it. This is grueling.

Today the first thing my MIL said to me was, "You've lost a lot of weight. Why?" She's the most direct person I know, and it's stressful thinking about having a conversation with her and FIL. H still hasn't decided about it. Ugh.

Thanks, all. Take care.