muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

[Nomopo]

Hello Puddle!!!!

H says, "Where are the towels?" I direct him to my bag and he pulls them out ... along with my copy of Homer---big fat "Stop Your Divorce!"---which falls face up on the floor of the tent.

Did he say anything? Nothing you can do about it. Laugh it off and let it go.

Child and I snuggle into H's bag, H says he's sleeping in the car.

Your H strikes me as childish and immature. Does that sound right? Also, very largely self absorbed/interested.

Next day H is sicker than ever (he's had something for a while) and spends the next couple days alternately sleeping and playing with the kids (far away from me). When I ask how he's feeling he responds with things like, "The same. I'm not complaining" and "Achy and feverish."

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

H is again not wearing his ring.

Are you wearing yours? I've stopped wearing mine and I find it liberating. I don't feel M'd at all. W has had no commitment to me since Jan. when she declared she could no longer work on this M, and I have given up working in the marriage in the past few months too, so I don't see why I ought to wear it.

H stays on his own, away from the group (there were about 70 of us), for the most part, which is typical.

Again, what a great guy. Sheesh. What are his positive qualities again?

H doesn't mention my email, there is no R talk.

Excellent.

I had a great time. I organized this trip and felt very confident about myself, talked to a lot of people.

Even more excellent! Good for you girl!

Re how I'm acting around H: I'm feeling very much like I've let go of the fear of letting go. H is done, and I'm seeing so much of his unpleasant side that it's relatively easy to NOT want the M to work. Not sure if this is "detachment," giving up, or not really caring too much anymore (at the moment).

Also excellent, in my opinion.

The one potentially negative thing I see here is that I don't feel like I have to be cheery and upbeat all the time around him. I certainly censor what I share with him (re negative feelings about anything) and I don't get angry or anything, but I don't prance around the house all the time. I'm still going out and doing a lot, but it really is for me, and heck, I'm just not up all the time.

Yeah, I had this too. This got better when I finally let go of much of my anger (largely after two weeks of getting it off my chance, which probably is not good for any chance of saving the M, but oh well, it happened). The other thing that has helped with this is I have been thinking of my W as someone I would like to be friends with. I have tried to view her like my other close female friends. And when I think of her sitch, I try to think of it with someone else (not me), and I actually feel sorry for her. Weird, huh? Makes it easier to be nice to her almost all of the time.

...Muuuuch later. H came out and wanted to have an R talk mid-post.

Too bad.

- H says at least four times "I don't want to be married to you." Says this is his starting point, this feeling he has that he can't shake, is unwavering in his conviction.

Wonder why he keeps telling you. Is he trying to convince you or himself?

- When I ask how he explains that feeling to himself, he says there are different types of people, and H, the king of analogies, says a cat person can't become a dog person.

If I were you, I'd stop asking questions. Just agree.

Again mentions the fact that I have a "big ball of fear" that affects my reactions to situations.

Huh? Whatever. Just agree. "You're right H. I wouldn't want to be married to me either. This is impossible. It will never work. Smile"

He just doesn't want to be married to my type anymore.

"I underdstand. You're right. I wouldn't either."

I'm wonderful and he can't criticize me

though he just did . . .

, so I shouldn't feel that any of this reflects badly on me. Thanks.

Just nod. Boy, it would be great if he would focus more on himself and less on you. He really is controlling, isn't he. He absolutely wants to control you through all of this.

- Re my talk about how I was angry with him, asks me whether I'm angry because I love him deeply, he's my soul mate, and he's leaving or because he's messing up my idea of what my life would look like; says it sounds like the latter.

I say I feel a deep bond with him that's grown over time, that's based on love and respect, I value the commitment that I made to him and he to me, and that I'm sad that that foundation is gone. He says it's not gone for him, though it may be for me, and that he appreciated my use of the word "bond" instead of "connection," because "it's more fitting." I grind my teeth. Vow to never again use the word connection.

Next time, I'd say I'm not angry. I have accepted that this M is over. You're right. It will never work. It's impossible. And I'm fine and moving on too.

- Asks how I see him and what he's doing, what I think's going on. I said I think he's unhappy. He says he's not unhappy, wasn't unhappy in our M, but will be unhappy if he stays in this R. Not sure he'll find happiness, it's scary going out and being alone, but it's what he feels he needs to do.

Does he always disagree with everything you say? Isn't that frustrating? I am frustrated just reading those sentences.

Hey, come to think of it, that must be how the WAS spouse feels when we disagree with them.

- Says re him hurting the kids, it's better for them to have a happy papa than an unhappy one. Acknowledges I might see that as selfishness. I wondered if he feels like he's protecting them, in a way, and he says he wouldn't go that far.

Sounds like you engaged in the R talk too much to me? Do you think so now?

- Re the kids, says since we trade off nights and weekend days anyway (which we often do), it's not like their schedule will be too different. If we present his apartment as a "second place," and he comes over in the mornings and evenings to see them, he thinks they shouldn't feel too much impact. We haven't been fighting and screaming at each other, which is where "the real damage begins."

Actually, this makles some sense to me. Is it really utterly delusional to you? I mean it will have an effect no doubt. Damage will be done. But they're not doomed at all.

I also think, "So they'll get to deal with papa leaving a happy marriage. Yeah, that'll be much easier to swallow." Don't say that either.

You have a happy marriage?????

I tell him that despite the scheduling impact, I'm very concerned that they will feel this separation deeply, tell him I've read some stuff, I'm worried that the kids will always carry these effects, that they'll fundamentally question who they are, what their family is, etc. I say this all VERY calmly (but not if-I-had-a-gun-right-now-you'd-be-in-trouble calmly) and unemotionally, very matter of fact.

No matter how you said it, it was pressure/guilt, etc. I happen to agree with you, but there is no way H sees that like you and me. So, why did you say it? What was your goal?

- H says since I said if he were to bring women here I wouldn't be comfortable with him staying, that we can present it as a mutual decision.

Not sure this is the basis, but there probably is a way for you to get comfortable with telling your kids "we decided." I don't think H needs to know what your basis is necessarily.

Says he feels awkward being out late, feels like he's sneaking into his parents house, wouldn't want to have friends over. I say he's been clear with me, is an adult, and I'm not uncomfortable with his late hours, friends over, etc. Ask him again why he thinks he's uncomfortable, he can't answer.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me think you engaged too much in the R talk.

Says, "I guess moving out is my fault then, and I'll get the blame." I say, "I'm not talking about blame." He says when they ask why papa's living somewhere else, I might say "Because he wants to." I tell them I wouldn't say that to them, though perhaps when they're much older if they want to discuss it, I'll be truthful with them.

I think his concern about his kids blaming him is very legit. I don't think that will be good for the kids.

BTW, it is excellent he wants to be so involved with the kids still. Many WASs don't.

First off, I'm proud of myself

You should be. You done good.

H said he notices the changes I'm making, "little things," and he's happy to see them, but they don't touch him.

This is excellent. Ignore the last clause.

Doing it myself is giving my self-confidence a disproportionate boost. I'm also learning how to use my new camera and upload pics. Feels really good.

Yay you!

Last: The first night of the camping trip (when H wasn't there) I had a dream that we were back together, we ML and it was great. Then the next day (in the dream) he was his usual grumpy, discontent self and I thought, "It'll always be this way."

Hmmm.

You're detaching.

[. . .] the Homer book falling out of your bag with a plop, face up in front of your H sounds like a definite Lifetime movie moment.

Oh yeah. I'm sure it's hard to believe I'm "letting go" when he sees things like that.

Who cares what he believes. That's his problem. Focus on you. Sounds like you are to a larger extent.

H is having a hard time buying it. I just got an email from him re last night's convo, which he called "disappointingly sterile," said I am not honest about my feelings "your anger dissipated that quickly?" and don't share feelings "(conversation completely devoid of emotions)."

He wants so badly to control him. Try not to worry about this. Just focus on you.

I'm apparently coming off as some kind of robot, which wasn't my intention. I think a lot of that has to do with H's expectations, which may involve screaming and crying, and I've asked him about that. We'll see what he says.

Stop fueling the R talk. Just tell him you're fine and moving on. These are the cards life has dealt you, and you will be fine.

I clarified (just now) that the foundation of that bond for me was the fact that we were partners, just for each other, and that being gone makes me sad and changes things for me.

You're a glutton for this R talk, aren't you?

5. What is this man looking for? People change throughout life, but he sounds lost.

Last night I was feeling sad as I listened to him, thinking he sounds so lost.

He is lost. Focus on you.

Yes! I am a chick who can pack a car. Should I put that in my dating profile?

Uh, only if you want to attract men.

So in this email I just got, H says he's going to tell his father (who's flying in today), which is another turnaround. He says he'll swear him to secrecy, and I told him I think it's unfair for him to ask father not to tell wife (also visiting), but I'll leave it up to him. Schmuck.

Yes, he's a schmuck. If you really left it up to him you wouldn't have said that. Let him be. He says he doesn't want to be married. Just listen, validate/agree, etc. Stop offering solutions. Stop offering opinions, views, thoughts. Stop asking questions. Focus on you and your kids.

He says he wants to move out around the end of the month and talk finances. I said oky-doky.

Excellent!

He says I can't be done with the M if I want him to stay in the house.

Man, something tells me if you went full Homer, he'd freak out. Just a hunch.

I clarified that I don't "want" him to stay, but ther that it's okay with me if he does and okay if he wants to leave. Not sure this will make any difference in how he reads it, but felt like I wanted to clarify that. And I repeated "I understand and accept that M is over." Ugh.

Ok. Not bad. It's going to take a while to sink in. Hint: The more you really feel it, the more he'll really believe. They can often (usually) see through the facades.

I responded to his email immediately and from the hip, since part of what he's reacting to is my lack of emotion. Last night he said that email I sent the other day (which you all helped me draft) said it sounded like I'd edited it to death. Hopefully this will sound more like me.

Who cares what it sounds like to him? Focus on you, what you want, etc. You don't owe him anything. His whole m.o. here is to get you to give him what he wants. Example: He says your emails don't have enough emotion for me. Then you try to send him a more emotional email. Is that focusing on you? Detach more!

I'm feeling less like I care, but I'd also like to be feeling a bit more of that legendary inner strength and sublime peace I keep hearing about. I feel strong, pretty proud of myself, and tired of all this. So tired.

You are strong. And you are detaching.

Take care Puddle. Hope it helps.

Nomo