Remembering myself, Part II

[Dom R]

Some combined comments in reply to various posts:
(daaang.. this got way too long. splitting off my post to karen, to a separate post )

You can't really have sex if you don't personally feel horny. You can go through the motions, but it's pretty easy for the other person to notice that.

Eddie, what you are describing, is a stereotypical male attitude. I am not saying this to say "you're a male chauvenist pig" or anything. after all, i'm a guy and i've actually had that attitude myself. Back when I was 20 years old, that is.
What I'm saying, is that there are other attitudes out there. even amoungst guys.

So you can love your wife all you want and you can decide to take care of her all you want, but you can't actually take care of her unless you are horny.

I would hazard a guess that for the average woman, your statement is exactly backwards. To my view, you best "take care of a woman", by showing her that you care.

Poll for the women: (and especially Karen!)
If you had to choose between one or the other:
Would you rather have your man get sexually aroused by your body, and have sex with you, while not giving a damn whether he was taking care of you?
Or would you rather have your man care about, and take care of, your sexual needs, even if he was totally not aroused(to the point of no erection whatsoever)

Sure, it's an ego boost, for either a man or a woman, to be told, "Your bod is so hot, it totally turns me on!!" But most women (and some men, even) feel that the emotional level is far more important.
The alternative, is that sex is basically a pacifier to your own insecurities and inadequacies about a poor self body-image.
You "have to have the other person horney for you", because otherwise, your self-body-image is too hurt.

Speaking as a non-average man.. i myself would rather have the "I love you and want to take care of you", rather than the "I'm horney lets have sex" reaction, if I have to choose between them.
I dont need to be told, "Wow, you have the body of brad pitt!"
Because, quite frankly, I know that I dont, and I'm ok with that.


to fearless:
Yes, I understand that backing off was a 180. It now has been tried. and it has failed. he doesnt care that he has been shown as a non-initiator. he already knows that. it's not a problem from his perspective. His perspective seems to be
"if I'm horney, i'll initiate. If I'm not horney, there's nothing I can do about that so dont bother me".

(and to lillie who was posting while I was posting )
i think i understand Karen's position in this. I think that it was mostly his lack of enthusiasm and begrudging attitude when giving oral, that was the problem for her.
"enthusiasm" is not the same thing as "he is horney".

[Dom R]

To Karen (! )

I would definately suggest NOT talking during vacation about heavy stuff, with one exception, at the end of it. more below.

It would seem that "relax time" turns your H on. But "scheduling sex", turns him off.

So.. (as I might have vaguely hinted before ) try NOT scheduling sex, but scheduling TOGETHER TIME.
Once, preferably twice a week.
Kid free, relaxing together time. whether that is going out, or just vegging at home in front of the tv.
If he get used to the "together time" enough to look forward to it, then things might start happening a bit more, or at least be more enjoyable if you initiate during a few of them.( around every 3rd time maybe?)

That's what you might discuss at the end of your vacation; scheduling some regular "relax time" every week together. You could call it your "mini-vacation time".


Also... for whatever reason... he might view your home, as a stressful place. Whereas vacations, get him in a "non-stressful" environment.

stressful place == no sex.
happy place == sex.

So, you might think about factors that might make your home a "stressful place", and consider ways to make the house, or maybe even just one specific room (bedroom?!!! ), a stress-free zone.

I've already mentioned the children as a factor in this. yes, you've said you view them as just as much his responsability as yours. But, to paraphrase an old chestnut, "Do you want to be right? or do you want to be 'satisfied'?"


I'm pretty sure this is stuff a sex therapist would be telling you, if you went. Even if your husband doesnt want to go, you might go see one by yourself, to get more "solution oriented" ideas like this, that you havent tried.

PS:

Our life is so ridiculously overloaded and whatever time we aren't shuttling kids or relatives or whatever has a baby hooked to my breast or sleeping on my chest. I could just cry.

Examine how much of this "riddiculously overloaded" is under your control. Not "how much of it you feel guilt-ridden and obligated to do", but "how much do you control?"
Then start losing your guilt about lessening your obligations. even to your children. (not getting rid of them just lightening your load)

[Lillieperl]

Dom, I agree that a partner who is enthusiastic for sex is more important than an erection TO A WOMAN. After much study of this subject (from the outside, I'll grant you), I'm not sure that anything makes up to a man the lack of an erection. My late husband was completely impotent due to diabetes. NO erection of any kind (until he had penile implant surgery.) Yeah, when he took care of me with his hand or his tongue, it was nice... I liked it. It was sweet. But I used to weep sometimes alone when I thought I might NEVER see a real erection again as long as I lived. Then I met my bf, who, alas, also has ED issues due to heart problems and a lifetime of smoking. I'm sure the universe is laughing at me. A guy who experiences ED has to have a very strong sense of himself to approach a woman sexually.

Have YOU ever experienced ED? If so, how many times? (When I first asked this question on this board several years ago, only one of the male posters responded. It was something men did not want to admit, even on an anonymous board.)

Mr karen STARTS with low, somewhat adolescent, sexual self-esteem (he was only with ONE woman before he married karen at age ~40-- karen, is that right?). And the first time they did it, he experienced ED. Now when they DO do it, he has to be on the bottom... clearly the ED is on his mind. The giggly reaction to references to MB on TV kind of sums it up, don't you think?

Your thought process is good. Your ideas are good. But just gear them to the Real Karen and the Real Mr Karen and the Real Situation and see what you can come up with. Just saying, "he should do this because it's right regardless of how he feels" may be true, but it's not practical.

Back to the drawing board, my man.

[karen1]

Dom - I think you misunderstood the part where I said that the kids are as much his responsibility as mine. My H takes as much responsibility as I do with the kids. He volunteers us and himself for MUCH MORE than I ever do. It is HE who has chosen to join the community association board, volunteers for this and that and takes our kids (and everyone elses) everywhere ,all the time. Remember, he's the one who would like more children. The little ones have needs that are no ones fault, they are just small. However, my H has no desire to lighten the load with kids or to carve out kid free time, zones. His usual response to my complaining about sex is to schedule dinner out with just he and I because he understands it as my requesting "intimacy" in a broader way. Well, yes I DO need intimacy in a broader way but I also need sex. Most people think that itimacy begets sex and sometimes that is true but just as often I think sex begets intimacy. H does not subscribe to that belief.

I do understand being solution oriented and I do think that seeing a sex therapist would be a good idea even if only I go. I have even gone so far as to look some up in my area. There aren't any very close by so seeing one will require me to miss quite a bit of work etc... I will also likely have to bring the babies with me to the appointments because their offices are nowhere near my childcare options. Any marriage/family therapists near my office and daycare will be people that I know professionally (not good). There are quite a few logistics for this but it isn't totally outside the realm of possibility with a little work. So, if it will take all that I may as well ask him to join me.

My biggest problem Dom isn't that I'm not solution oriented. It is that H will sidestep any suggested solutions, will fail to commit himself to a plan and will otherwise put up roadblocks to anything I bring up. It is so frustrating. My H continuously seeks to station any number of things between himself and me: tiredness, additional activities, kids, community activities, exercise, work, television (he'll stay up and I'll go to bed alone) etc...

Karen

[karen1]

Lil,

Very close. He was with 2 women before me, had actual IC only a handful of times before us. His non IC experience was minimal too.

Karen

[Dom R]

Ok, first, to lillieperl:
With all your talk about how men feel about ED, I am reminded of the disney "sword in the stone" movie, about merlin telling his pet owl, that merlin was going to be the one teaching arthur about how to fly as a bird, becuase he had "made an extensive study on birds in flight". To which archimedes replied, "and if you dont mind, I happen to be a bird!"

Besides which, you are mixing up two separate subjects:

1. whether or not karen would be satisfied with a (mostly) no-penetration sex life (which she didnt answer directly.. i'll bug her about that later ;))

2. how "important" it is to karen's husband, to have a functioning penis.

to quote you:

I'm not sure that anything makes up to a man the lack of an erection.

well, yeah, ok, that may or may not be true to karen's H.. . but what does that have to do with Karen?
If that is soo important to him.. he should SEE A DOCTOR!
If he wont.. then that is his problem.
Meanwhile, his own problems, should not stop him from helping his wife.

Just saying, "he should do this because it's right regardless of how he feels" may be true, but it's not practical.

on the contrary: it is eminently practical. it is ALL "practical". perhaps what you mean is, "it's not likely".

Anyways, back to Karen now

[stu]

It is that H will sidestep any suggested solutions, will fail to commit himself to a plan and will otherwise put up roadblocks to anything I bring up. It is so frustrating. My H continuously seeks to station any number of things between himself and me: tiredness, additional activities, kids, community activities, exercise, work, television (he'll stay up and I'll go to bed alone) etc...

Yeah!! WTF is this all about? I get this too...I don't know if's purely a mechanism to give them an excuse or it's just a part of their personality. I tend to think the latter but I suppose I could be wrong. What leads me to the latter is if I "back off" it still happens. For example, I will go to bed early knowing that there is no way S will occur. The next day, she will say "gee I shouldn't have stayed up till 2:00 AM cleaning the fish tanks" or some other weird thing.

Karen said about her H's s*xual behaviors "I don't get it". I think she actually does but just can't relate to it. I know I can't.

[MJontheMend]

This whole discussion strikes me as rather chicken and the eggy because it seems highly unlikely to me that a man who doesn't suffer from ED could perform oral or manual on a woman to the point of orgasm and not become aroused himself unless he had recently ejaculated. If Karen's H suffers mainly from ED rather than lack of desire then IMO that is a different problem.

Also, I'm wondering why any woman should have to choose between the guy who gets an erection because he's hot for her form or the guy who is willing to give her pleasure even though he's not aroused. My personal preference would be for the guy who has integrated his sexuality to the extent that he can pat his head and rub my belly at the same time and I will gladly return the favor. GP and I were talking about this the other day and he said "Every man who isn't stupid wants a wife who's part slut."

[Dom R]

Karen: you sidestepped my "poll".
you answered a different question. I didnt ask you if you wanted intimacy. I asked you if you wanted CARING about your needs.

you replied "Well, yes I DO need intimacy in a broader way but I also need sex."

Maybe you are understating/avoiding stating a specific need of yours.What do you mean by "need sex"?
Do you specifically mean "penile intercourse"? Or that sometimes you "just want to be screwed until you walk funny"? or...?

Other than the "penile intercourse" thing... all of that can be met, by a man, for a woman, even if he has ED or something.
I wont go into details, but I am speaking from first hand knowlege, that "I just want sex" needs, can be met that way. And i'm not talking about "oh, dearest, I feel such a close personal bond with you". I'm talking about, "Dammit make me cum so many times I pass out!!!" kinda stuff. (I think my record is something like 18)
*cough*. ahem.

All it takes, is for the man to care enough about his wife, to take action about it. NOT that he is turned on. It's easier for the man to get into it when he has hormones flowing. but it's not required.
Supposedly, the majority of women have orgasms through clitoral, rather than vaginal, stimulation anyways. That suggests that the whole penis thing, is fun for an intimacy standpoint, and also an ego standpoint.. but it's not so much the #1 thing for the majority of women actually being sexually satisfied.
Hmmmm?

On the other hand, maybe you didnt really mean what you said.
Maybe you meant, "sometimes, I just want him to want me sexually. I want to feel his desire for me".
Trouble is... once again.. talking, or playing mind manipulation games with him, is not going to work. The only way that is going to happen, is by you doing something.
Either by changing yourself to attract him in different ways, or by approaching sex differently, or both.

AND, most importantly, by getting him into an environment where he is physically free to have a libido.
His current environment (stresswise) prevents him from having one.
You will have to take action to fix that. Such as, getting the children out from under-foot more.
Yes, YOU. 'cause seems like mr. submissive isnt going to do anything unless you prod him about it.


speaking of which... his submissive thing is a whole 'nuther issue.

maybe you really DO need to take the "dominant" role seriously, if you want to get satisfied regularly. It's probably no coincidence about all the rumors about "high powered hi stress executives paying a dominatrix for sex" kinda stuff. They're so stressed, Their body is probably so stressed it doesnt want to go into action, until it is ordered to. ha ha.
Comment on that if you dare

Most people think that itimacy begets sex and sometimes that is true but just as often I think sex begets intimacy. H does not subscribe to that belief.

Karen, the wonderful thing about truth is... it doesnt stop being true, if someone doesnt believe in it.
You dont have to convince your husband to "believe it", you just need to convince him to Do It!

His usual response to my complaining about sex is to schedule dinner out with just he and I because he understands it as my requesting "intimacy" in a broader way.

PERFECT! WONDERFUL! He can actually be responsive to your complaints in some fashion!
So... go with what works, and work it some more. Tell him, that spending some quality time together, would mean more to you than dinner. Skip the dinner, and go to the cuddling/backrubs.
Tell him, "dinner will not make me happy. Doing [other, non sexual but physicaly close activity] will".

You have then put him up against a wall, but with an acceptible path for him to follow. On the one hand, he now knows that his usual cop-out of dinner, will not fly this time. But on the other hand, he isnt being forced into dealing with his problems with sex; he has an easier alternative to follow.

So, he will follow it.


PS: You should try "phone counselling". You dont need a sex therapist "near" you.

So hurry up, and call one, and spend $150 to find out, "yeah, you really should go do all those things that Dom has been suggesting you do" heh heh


PPS: that'll be $75. thank you

[Dom R]

To MJ:

Also, I'm wondering why any woman should have to choose between the guy who gets an erection because he's hot for her form or the guy who is willing to give her pleasure even though he's not aroused.

Forcing a person to make a choice such as this, is a therapy tool, to help the patient identify their own priorities.

PS: your fling guy, doesnt use words accurately.
he probably meant "every guy wants a nympho", not "every guy wants a slut".
Unless actually he wants to see you "getting busy" with other men, that is. yuk.