Remembering myself, Part II

[Dom R]

First off, my apologies to karen: I misremembered you as saying that you had "never" had oral sex from your husband. However, scrolling back through your posts, I do not see such a thing. So, my mistake. sorry about that.

H is a hard nut to crack.

that he is.

Dom, I appreciate your optimism, but would you allow that it's POSSIBLE that karen's H does not WANT sex with a woman?

What you are really trying to do, is get me to say that I think it is possible that her husband is homosexual. Anything is possible. it's possible that I may be hit by a meteor as i sit here typing this. But it's not likely.

IOW the default condition is that a heterosexual man will want sex with a woman.

However, when a heterosexual man stops wanting sex with a woman.. that does not stop him from behing heterosexual. It may mean that he has devolved into being asexual.

Unless karen has noticed him checking out other guys' butts, or found a stash of gay porn somewhere.. there is no evidence to indicate that he is gay.

Or do you cry "lez! lez!" every time a husband bemoans the fact that his wife just doesnt want sex with him any more?


PS: my comment about commitment to marriage, was directed more at cac, not karen, since cac was the one who made the comments i quoted.
although "directed at" is somewhat overly pointed. It was more a general comment, about a general "you". I was pointing out that if 'you' base your commitment in a relationship, around how much they 'genuinely and sincerely want you', then it is guaranteed that your commitment to the relationship will fail at some point, since pretty much ALL long-term relationships go through a lull in that sort of thing.

The ones that last, are the ones where the two people say, "i'm committed to you, and so I want to work on bringing back those feelings between us".


-----

back to Karen, and the "tough nut"...

[side note: you've never commented on my various "if you were a man" comparisons.. how about them? ]

I think my old opinion is still basically true.
Karen, you basically seem to have have choices of "give up on sex", "try to fix husband", or "make the most of what he offers you" with additional flavorings of "confront him about offering you MORE".

"give up on sex", is an almost guaranteed way to ensure that you will eventually succumb to an affair down the line, of one form or another.
Almost everyone in a similar situation, always says, "I NEVER thought i would ever do such a thing". But the built-up over years, eventually will probably get to you. you're only human.

"try to fix your husband" is a loosing battle. You cant "make" someone resolve an internal problem, if they dont want it fixed.
You can ask you can make things more comfortable for him. You can possibly suggest, "if you are having problems, this counsellor/book might be a help to you"... but if they arent interested... no go. Sounds like you've already tried this, with the SSM book, and he wasnt interested.
You can lead a blockhead to knowlege, but you cant make him think. (ya know, horse to water, etc...)

So, by process of elimination, the only thing left is: make the most of what you are offered, and also try to improve the quality of what you are offered.

A possibility:
You MIGHT start out, by addressing the quality of sex, rather then the quantity, first of all.

The guy apparently truely cares for you, on an emotional level.
This is an incredible asset!!! you are a really lucky woman in this reguard.

I'm going to make a separate post with an idea I have, 'cause I dont want it to get lost in this already long one

[Lillieperl]

Or do you cry "lez! lez!" every time a husband bemoans the fact that his wife just doesnt want sex with him any more?

Don't be ABSURD! Don't attribute such a ludicrous thought to me. It isn't worthy of your intelligence!




And no, I'm not trying to get you to admit that karen's H is gay. I'm trying to get you to admit that karen's H may not want sex with her or any woman. I asked you if you assumed karen's H's default condition was to want to have sex with her, and that that would happen if SHE removed the obstacles.

You keep telling her to try try try... but she has tried. You're saying she hasn't tried enough or hard enough or long enough, the assumption being that if she does more harder longer louder, he H will want to have sex.

I'm trying to get you to admit that that is your premise. Is it?

[Dom R]

So, here's the idea for karen, along with the "why":

Karen, your husband ostensibly cares about you. He does caring things for you (to some degree). However, for whatever reason, he does not currently include sex in that category of things.

You could spend a whoole lot of time and effort trying to figure out "why"... or you could focus on encouraging him to change it.
The "Solution Based" option, would be focusing him on encouraging him to change it.
So, here's my idea, along those lines.

he is apparently sex phobic, or sex resistant (except once a year, on vacation, when "he wants sex now ) so.... see how wide this resistant area is.
Then see if it can be gradually shrunk.

Ask him for a fixed amount of time, for a massage.
Pick some part of your body, that you would enjoy getting attention on, that is NON-sexual. back, neck, shoulders, whatever.
Then, ask him very nicely, "Honey, would you rub my neck for about 15 minutes? I'd really appreciate it".

a few days later, ask for the same thing. or maybe another area.
same amount of time, just something else nice for you.

Nothing too long... long enough to make it enjoyable for you, but short enough that he will willingly do it.


If he is repeatedly grudging even about a simple massage, then the general concept fails.
Ideally, if he is kinda reluctant the first time... the non-sexualness of it.. and the fact that you do NOT ask him for sex at any point, may help him be relaxed for the next time.

If he's resentful and reluctant every time, for 4 separate times when you try it in a non-demanding non-sexual way... then go see a sex therapist :-P


But otherwise... hopefully, he should get to the point where he is willingly, and unreservedly giving you "physical attention".
Your responsability will be to be appreciative of him, without being seductive.

After MANY of these (probably at least 4, that he has shown no signs of reluctance or reservation whatsoever...possibly more, if you think it is a good idea) ask him for 15 minutes of attention, but this time, for your "chest". Specifically ask him to rub you there.
If he agrees.. do NOT ask him for anything further during that session. you might show him a LITTLE vocal sexual appreciation (since you'll probably be indicating that you are "happy" one way or another )
but in no way indicate that you are wanting or expecting intercourse from this.
Just enjoy exactly what he is giving you, and no more.
This should encourage him to give in "limited" amounts, without feeling resentful about you expecting more from him than he feels like giving.

It would actually be a GOOD thing, if he suddenly makes a sulky remark about "i guess you're expecting sex now...". To which the appropriate reply is, "nope! I'm just really enjoying what you are doing, dear"


Do you understand why I'm suggesting this?
It's to draw out his "giver", very very gently, and make him feel comfortable, and happy, about giving to you.

If he keeps doing this sort of thing for you, then;

best case: he stops being so selfish, and starts actually enjoying giving to you physically
worst case: he at least gets retrained to being physically nice to you, without the "suffering" attitude.

If he starts getting resentful about rubbing your "chest" the first time, you might choose to respond with, "oh well, if you're going to be all sulky about it, then rub my feet for me instead" or something like that.

Then ask for it again, another time. maybe with an upfront declaration of "I'm not looking for sex. I'd just like you to rub my chest.

The long-term goal is:

Either he gets attuned to "Yes, giving positive physical attention to Karen is something that I can and should give to her without being sulky"
OR
you then get to confront him directly about, "you were perfectly happy and comfortable giving my physical attention on my ..... so why do you get all resentful and nasty if I ask you to rub my boobies instead??"



In other words:

If he's just selfish and lazy, this should retrain him
If he's got serious issues around physical intimacy with you that he cant get over, this will give you the foundation you need, to make him admit that he has a problem that is specifically sexual in nature, and possibly go to counselling for it.
He could still refuse, of course. But at minimum, you then have a much clearer picture about "lazy, or 'issues'?"

Right now, i think you can only guess as to which one it is.

[Dom R]

...the assumption being that if she does more harder longer louder, he H will want to have sex.

I'm trying to get you to admit that that is your premise. Is it?

Nope. I make no claims, that if karen "does the right things", that her husband will suddenly want to have sex.

Right now, my focus is on suggestions for karen to try, so that her husband might at least enjoy it more when they do have sex.

after all.. in some respects.. frequency "isnt a problem".
To some degree, i think that when karen says she wants it... she gets it. The biggest problem is his miserly martyrdom attitude when he gives it to her.
Which makes her not ask him so much.
(which is actually his goal in his behaviour, it would seem like)

So, it would be good to figure out if it is a problem, or laziness/selfishness.

In some respects.. if karen is really really lucky.... even if there is an actual problem ... I think that there's a small chance that the plan outline I suggested, could help him overcome it.

(it's semi-similar to a sexual-aversion treatment therapy approach that I once read)

[cac4]

what you are suggesting would be absolutely tortureous, to me, and I suspect any person who's LL is PT, and has been "denied" for so long. Kind of like forcing a diabetic to work in a chocolate factory.

I know that when I was in Karen's boat, I not only didn't initiate, I avoided any form of PT, because it was such a painfull reminder of what was missing.

on your assertion of being "guaranteed to fail"...well, no, I don't think its a guarantee at all. Like I said before, some people can tolerate a lot. Look at Sandi and her H; they've been at it for 40 years. do you really want to bet on when they're getting D? I don't.

[Dom R]

Yup. reallly really difficult.. unless one is sure to "take care of things" themselves before the event.

as far as sandi's marriage goes goes:

#1. they are old enough that neither party believes in divorce. So, the question of "when are they getting divorced?" isnt applicable.

#2. they are both "LD". whereas karen, seems to be HD to me.
And even if karen is 100% committed to not getting a divorce.. she's going to be horribly unhappy for the rest of her life with her husband, if she decides to go the "no sex from husband" route.
That kind of resentment does NOT go away. It gets worse over time.

You wanna use sandi as an example?
Ok... she didnt get a divorce... .but she almost had a physical affair. She DID have an emotional "affair".
Is that any better?

no sex = problems, either sooner or later. unless one of them just happens to die first. ugh.

[GonnaGoBlind]

I know that when I was in Karen's boat, I not only didn't initiate, I avoided any form of PT, because it was such a painfull reminder of what was missing.

Yup, same thing here, after years of trying everything I could find. At some point even the most optimistic will lose hope if nothing he tries makes any difference.

[Lillieperl]

Nope. I make no claims, that if karen "does the right things", that her husband will suddenly want to have sex.

Right now, my focus is on suggestions for karen to try, so that her husband might at least enjoy it more when they do have sex.

Okay. I get this.

no sex = problems, either sooner or later. unless one of them just happens to die first

This goes back to my question about your premise, namely, that "a normal person will want some kind of sex at some time with someone (or alone)."

I guess we've established that Mr. karen likes sex alone. The question is whether he EVER wants sex with another person.

[cemar2]

Dom R:

Part of the problem in SSM is that for many problems, THERE ARE NO CREATIVE ALTERNATIVES. Oral sex is one of those things. THere is NOTHING that can make up for the lack of it, NOTHING.

[Imconfused0807]

I'm seeing Dom's POV, but what I'm also seeing is a general feeling of negativity towards any of his suggestions without much in the way of any alternative ideas. (and I'm not singling out anyone in particular just a general feeling I'm getting from the board). I feel Karen is here for much the same reasons that many of the rest of us are here...we're looking for something, anything that might help us in our situations. I could be wrong, but divorce does not really seem like an option that Karen is willing to pursue so why not try to make the best of what she is willing to pursue...her marriage

Maybe Dom's suggestions will work, maybe not. I guess we will never know unless we try them. I don't have any reference in front of me so if this is a little off, forgive me... Michele mentions in one of her books (maybe all of them??) that if your trying something and it doesn't seem to be working, a common mistake made is to try "harder" instead of try "different."

I know from Karen's posts that she is trying and I feel for her as I do for the rest of you. It's frustrating !! We try and try and try but we don't really seem to get anywhere. The way I see it, we can try "harder" and then gripe and bitch and moan about it or we can try "different" and see where it leads.....

Thanks Dom, I've pulled some stuff out of your posts to Karen that I'm going to give a whirl at my situation and see what happens