Remembering myself, Part II

[Dom R]

what you're saying is that we should just accept whatever "crap sex" our spouses offer, and be happy with it.

what you are implying, seems to be that I'm saying "take what he gives you, and shut up".

no, that's not what I'm saying. How can you even claim that, when I have time after time after time been telling karen, "GO FOR MORE!!"

What I am saying is, start by recognizing and acknowleging what your partner is giving you, and be grateful for it.
Both to them, and inside yourself.

If you give someone a birthday gift of $20... and they say in a sarcastic voice.. "wow. $20. that's great. I can do sooo much with that. I can buy half a ...."
Are you really going to feel like giving them another $20?
If you do, you are guilt driven, and you arent going to like them very much even if you do decide to give it to them.

[b]If[b/], on the other hand, they smile at you, and say "Thank you! I really appreciate you giving that to me! I'm glad you thought of me on my birthday. This will really help me, because I'm saving up towards [xxx, which costs $40]"

That makes you feel good about giving them the gift.. it makes you feel good about THEM... and you might even decide to give them the other $20 willingly.. AND feel good that you did!

I'm not saying that karen's husband will definately react the same way if she goes the "really appreciate it" method. it's possible, but somewhat unlikely.
What I AM saying, is that the other method, of being UNappreciative, kills the giving spirit.

that MIGHT even be why he is so grudging now: if karen takes a "i'm unhappy, you should be giving me more!!" approach to it.

I think Michelle even mentions this type of thing in DB, in one of the examples of 180-ness. The 180 of a spouse being really happy and greatful for a gift/action, rather than what they had previously done (being sulky and "i want more" in response)

MWD even says in one of her books that you should never accept that kind of "mercy sex", because it is degrading and humiliating

Whats the difference between "mercy sex", and "I'm not comfortable doing something, but I know you need it, so I choose to meet your needs?"


Sulking in a corner, and saying, "We're never going to have sex, until i KNOW THAT YOU WANT IT, and you WANT ME!!"
pretty much kills any possibility of that ever happening.

you gotta get there in steps.

The holy grail that most of us seek is true desire...we want a partner who genuinely and sincerely wants us; not one that merely tolerates us.

If that is the standard upon which you base your commitment to marriage... then it ensures that you will cycle through a serious of marriage partners.
Obviously, we all WANT that. One of the core required components of a lasting marriage, is how we handle things, when we dont get what we want from our spouse.


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Now, to Karen:

However, he rarely appears interested, grudgingly does it at all and when he does participate it rarely includes my preferences. What I am entitled to is the truth of why that is.

Ok, I completely agree that his "grudging participation" is a problem. A question for you is: are you driving that, by reacting negatively similar to the example I gave, above?

Also... "entitled to truth"?? maybe... maybe not.
But lets not set your goals so low. What do you REALLY want:
"the truth of why that is", or "for that to change".
Which will leave you happier: If you "learn the truth, but no change", or "dont learn the truth, but behaviour changes"?

More on "learning the truth", below. But first.. you might focus more on what behaviour of yours, drives his behaviour.

If changing your behaviour, changes his behaviour in a way that you like... methinks you'll be a much happier camper?

[Our] discussions about sex ARE NOT bonding experiences. They are rarely loud or combative but they aren't fun and he invariably retreats even further for a long time thereafter.

There's an old joke about sex. something like, "if you dont enjoy sex, then you're doing it wrong"
What this says to me, is that you need to find a better way/place/method/... of discussing sex issues together.
it doesnt have to be "fun".. but there is probably some way you could do it, that is non-threatening.
maybe through a sex counsellor specifically, rather than a more general marriage coulsellor or something. and you see them separatly or something. Just one idea, but there are lots of other possibilities.

I havent read it, but i would hope that a book like "the sex-starved marriage" would have suggestions on that.