muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle. Just tried to email you Homer's book. Did you get it?

Thanks for writing.

You're welcome, of course!

A big part of me is of the more is less philosophy.

More is less? Do you mean less is more?

Ooops. Yes, less is more.

Your H keeps pushing you to give him what he wants. If you want to accommodate him, fine. If you don't, that's his problem. So I guess what I am getting at is why are you sending a detailed response at all. There may be a good reason, but I want to make sure you have one.

We've figured out that we communicate better via email (or on the phone), so this is a big talk for us, essentially, serial-wise.

But my question is - - - what are you having a big talk (via email or otherwise? Has he just beat you down, or is there another reason?

I want to accommodate him in as far as I can do it honestly.

Ok, I guess. Maybe that is the answer.

I want to work on the M, he doesn't. He wants to move out, I'd prefer he stays to work on it. I want him to be happy, and he thinks moving out will help in that direction.

Re-read this quote after you read the Homer book. You're fighting him, and Homer says that it will work against you. My personal view (just forming this, BTW, and it's still in progress) is that if you fight them, it will seriously hurt any chance you have. If you give in, then it's either meant to be over and will be over and you can move on or if there is a chance this is how you will find out and most likely succeed. Make sense?

I can't tell him I want what he wants, which is what he wants. What a tongue twister. I'm trying to show him that even though I don't want the same thing, I'm willing to work with him to do what he wants. Do you think I don't need to tell him that?

I think you can say it in a way and still agree with him, per Homer: "I would [have] prefer[red] that this marriage work, but I now see that you are right. It is impossible."

Isn't it impossible with his current mindset anyway? But you don't need to say that, do you?

Again, he keeps saying as long as we're not discussing these things, "we can't move forward." Since he's clearly unhappy in the house and pretty pissy with me, I want him to know that we can, in a sense, move forward with what he wants, even without agreeing.

Homer would say, I think, don't get hung up on the agreeing. That's just about being right (which isn't really important, and even Michele says solutions are more important than being right), and it causes tension, friction, lots of megative emotions in your H about you and it prevents any chance of reconciliation.

[quote=Puddle]H wrote: >Huh. Well since I don't know what's *really* going on inside you I err on the side >of making myself scarce/small.

Puddle: If you do something that steps on my toes---if I need more space, more time, less something else---I'll tell you. I may not do it immediately, but I will be clear.

This is fine. Does it require any response at all really?

The second part *is* my response.

I know. And I meant to say your response sounds fine, but do you really have to respond? Maybe you do, but think about it.

I believe Homer would suggest saying something like this: "I would have preferred to save this marriage [at least for the kids?]. But I see now that you are right, that is impossible. I will work with you to make this as easy as possible."

I'm essentially saying that, I guess. The reason I included the part about disagreeing is that I think H is waiting for me to say, "You're right, can't be fixed," and maybe I'm just being stubborn, but I want him to make decisions based on what he wants and take responsibility for them. If I say, "You're right, it's impossible," I think he'll want us to present a united front to the world---parents, friends, etc---including how much in agreement we are. Do you see what I'm saying?

Oh yes, I see it. In fact I have been doing the exact same thing until about . . . now (maybe). Just starting to consider this Homer thing pretty seriously. If my M is gonna end, I'm not sure I really care about making the world know it was W's doing. Why does that matter? And if that attitude is a block to any chance of reconciliation, then maybe it really doesn't matter. Know what I mean? Plus, if it's going to be over, why not agree with him so you can be friends down the road. This is starting to make sense to me.

Maybe I'm just not letting go. I don't want to tell people we reached a mutual decision, though. Thoughts?

I think you and I are in very close positions here, though I am a little ahead of you and thinking about dragging you with me early. Maybe you will think me later.

That's sort of like what you proposed to say, without the "while disagreeing with the course you're taking" and the "If you're waiting for me to want the same thing you do, I can't give you that right now. I respect what you want, how you feel, and where you are, and I ask the same from you." Do you need those extra pieces? Why? What are trying to accomplish?

See above. Trying to "speak truth to H." And I feel like I need those extra bits to respond to his assertion that there's no moving forward, no working on things together, until we're in the same place. Can't we work on things together from different places? H says no.

Yeah, you can work on things from different places, but who cares? Why is that important to us? Are we still trying to be right and say our WAS are worng? I think so. So what if he thinks he got you to agree? Really, so what??? You'll always know. Your closest friends and family will know. and you'll take away the main thing that is now causing him to fight you, to associate negative feelings with you. I'm sort of thinking out loud here, but it makes some sense to me.

You also wrote: "I don't think I have to want the same thing you do to do that." Do you need to say this? Why?

Again, see above. Am I being stubborn? petty? selfish? I just want him to take responsibility for his decisions and respect where I am. Can't make him, of course. He wants me to share the responsibility with him, and I won't do it.

Again, I am or very recently (hours ago?) have been where you are. Maybe it is stubborn and selfish. I think really we have been trying to take a high ground stand. In other words, trying to be "right". Who cares about right in this fight? All that matters is saving your M if you can, however you can, and if not moving on with your life and making it the best you can.

Here's a question Puddle -- which would you choose: (1) Telling H that you've thought it over, and he's completely right. The M can't work, you need to transition to whatever he envisions, and it is impossible to change things/him/the M, etc. Basically agree 100% with all he says and save your M! Or (2) be honest with yourself and H and everyone else that you will always blame him for giving up, and that you stand by your vows, and think the M can be save but have him go push through a D?

In other words, is being right/honest more important than saving your M? Of course, neither of us knows for sure that agreeing 100% with them and in a sense dropping the rope will work, but it might? It makes some sense. It seems to have worked in many other sitches (a common theme in the success stories is it happens when they fully detach and move on).

Hugs,
Nomo

PS - get my email????

PSS - back to reading.