Remembering myself, Part II

[Dom R]

Imconfused gave a great description of what I have done for a "sneak attack" with H and he has complied. FWIW what I wish H had done is on ANY of those occasions said, "Honey, I just loved it when you sat on my face. Do it again and soon."

What you wrote, is a reminder, that my percentage guesses are accurate, and Lou's are totally wrong

It's also a very big pointer of something positive, and something negative.

Positive: When you were assertive about what you wanted: YOU GOT IT

Negative: you are poisoning your relationship with him, by your expectations of him.
I think, that YOU think, that you are somehow entitled to having that sort of a reaction from a man.
2x4: you're not

What if it was the other way around?

Classic example: Some men are wild for anal sex. Half the time, their wifes arent interested, or even hate it.

Sometimes, the wives that are ambivalent, or even hate it, participate in it on a semi-regular basis, because their husband really likes it.

If their husbands spent their time sulking about, "well, I got what I wanted... but what I REALLY want, is for my wife to tell me how much she loves anal, and she really wants it again, and soon"...

Doesnt that spoil their view of their marriage in general, PLUS spoil the whole enjoyment of, "wow, my wife is doing this thing that I really enjoy for me!"

Does the husband have any right to expect their wive's tastes to change? Can you see how self-destructive it is, to even dwell in wishing they would change?


Instead of moping about how he doesnt initiate it... How about finding the limits of how much he is comfortable doing it for you, and then just enjoying it?
It's tough to figure it out, if you dont have open and honest communcation going between you. But when and if you do:

Lets say his comfort limit for it, was once a week.
So, you ask/nudge/bribe/sneak attack him for it, some amount a little less than that. (every 10-14 days?)

Keep it where it maximizes your enjoyment, but under his threshold of, "wow, i'm really tired of doing this"

[huh.. i originaly wrote that, reguarding oral sex. but its probably applicable to your sex life in general, as well. just not on the same timescale. once a week should be the *minimum* for regular, i think ]


PS:

After a long uncomfortable radically honest discussion noone's libido is humming. Ya know?

AFter an uncomfortable one, sure. However, some radically honest discussions, can actually be an incredibly bonding experience, which promotes libido, rather than depressing it.

as far as his non-confort level with sex: you can either "try to fix him"... or you can just try to make it as comfortable as possible for him.
When you get to functional Radical Honesty... you could/should then ASK him, "honey.. how can I make it more comfortable for us to have sex together?"

[cac4]

couldn't disagree more, dom.

what you're saying is that we should just accept whatever "crap sex" our spouses offer, and be happy with it.

the whole point is, we're not happy with that. I dare say that many, if not "most" of the people here have spouses who are "willing", if we push the issue. In fact, what you suggest does more harm than good. MWD even says in one of her books that you should never accept that kind of "mercy sex", because it is degrading and humiliating. It isn't about any particular act, or any particular frequency. The holy grail that most of us seek is true desire...we want a partner who genuinely and sincerely wants us; not one that merely tolerates us.

[karen1]

Thanks Cac - that is what I am getting at. Frankly, I don't think I am entitled to my H desiring me every moment and being continuously interested in having sex with me or always doing it the way I want it. However, he rarely appears interested, grudgingly does it at all and when he does participate it rarely includes my preferences. What I am entitled to is the truth of why that is.

If I went with your plan then I could have sex on vacation 2 or 3 times/year, in exactly one position with oral only if I force myself upon him. Other than that I could probably get away with an additional one or two times per month with even less frills (as in very little kissing j- also all generated by me). That appears to be what he is "comfortable with". I have gone with that at times and become increasingly uncomfortable with myself and my own feelings of authenticity and self respect. This isn't about being the Queen of Sheba and wanting it all my way.

Out discussions about sex ARE NOT bonding experiences. They are rarely loud or combative but they aren't fun and he invariably retreats even further for a long time thereafter.

I don't want to fix him. I want him to tell me what is wrong with me, with him and/or with us that makes things this way. Then we can evaluate together what is fixable and what isn't.

Karen

[stu]

I don't want to fix him. I want him to tell me what is wrong with me, with him and/or with us that makes things this way. Then we can evaluate together what is fixable and what isn't.

What has he said so far? Any clues about why the low frequency? I'm very curious about this.

Don't assume there is a problem with you, from what you have said it doesn't sound like it. You are on the right track with the process though, this is more or less what did and it helped me at least understand things. IMO knowing the fixable and unfixable is critical. You may not be able to get him to discuss it much more than just stating some elliptical reasons why doesn't feel like it, you may have to put the puzzle together yourself.

I found that being direct was the least productive approach, I had to bring it up in a way that didn't make it seem that my W was s*xually deficient. It was as if I had to mention it, then it would ferment and she would bring it up at some later date and expound on it then. No real time discussions, I think she is very uncomfortable talking about it and needs to sort it out before responding.

[Dom R]

what you're saying is that we should just accept whatever "crap sex" our spouses offer, and be happy with it.

what you are implying, seems to be that I'm saying "take what he gives you, and shut up".

no, that's not what I'm saying. How can you even claim that, when I have time after time after time been telling karen, "GO FOR MORE!!"

What I am saying is, start by recognizing and acknowleging what your partner is giving you, and be grateful for it.
Both to them, and inside yourself.

If you give someone a birthday gift of $20... and they say in a sarcastic voice.. "wow. $20. that's great. I can do sooo much with that. I can buy half a ...."
Are you really going to feel like giving them another $20?
If you do, you are guilt driven, and you arent going to like them very much even if you do decide to give it to them.

[b]If[b/], on the other hand, they smile at you, and say "Thank you! I really appreciate you giving that to me! I'm glad you thought of me on my birthday. This will really help me, because I'm saving up towards [xxx, which costs $40]"

That makes you feel good about giving them the gift.. it makes you feel good about THEM... and you might even decide to give them the other $20 willingly.. AND feel good that you did!

I'm not saying that karen's husband will definately react the same way if she goes the "really appreciate it" method. it's possible, but somewhat unlikely.
What I AM saying, is that the other method, of being UNappreciative, kills the giving spirit.

that MIGHT even be why he is so grudging now: if karen takes a "i'm unhappy, you should be giving me more!!" approach to it.

I think Michelle even mentions this type of thing in DB, in one of the examples of 180-ness. The 180 of a spouse being really happy and greatful for a gift/action, rather than what they had previously done (being sulky and "i want more" in response)

MWD even says in one of her books that you should never accept that kind of "mercy sex", because it is degrading and humiliating

Whats the difference between "mercy sex", and "I'm not comfortable doing something, but I know you need it, so I choose to meet your needs?"


Sulking in a corner, and saying, "We're never going to have sex, until i KNOW THAT YOU WANT IT, and you WANT ME!!"
pretty much kills any possibility of that ever happening.

you gotta get there in steps.

The holy grail that most of us seek is true desire...we want a partner who genuinely and sincerely wants us; not one that merely tolerates us.

If that is the standard upon which you base your commitment to marriage... then it ensures that you will cycle through a serious of marriage partners.
Obviously, we all WANT that. One of the core required components of a lasting marriage, is how we handle things, when we dont get what we want from our spouse.


-------------------

Now, to Karen:

However, he rarely appears interested, grudgingly does it at all and when he does participate it rarely includes my preferences. What I am entitled to is the truth of why that is.

Ok, I completely agree that his "grudging participation" is a problem. A question for you is: are you driving that, by reacting negatively similar to the example I gave, above?

Also... "entitled to truth"?? maybe... maybe not.
But lets not set your goals so low. What do you REALLY want:
"the truth of why that is", or "for that to change".
Which will leave you happier: If you "learn the truth, but no change", or "dont learn the truth, but behaviour changes"?

More on "learning the truth", below. But first.. you might focus more on what behaviour of yours, drives his behaviour.

If changing your behaviour, changes his behaviour in a way that you like... methinks you'll be a much happier camper?

[Our] discussions about sex ARE NOT bonding experiences. They are rarely loud or combative but they aren't fun and he invariably retreats even further for a long time thereafter.

There's an old joke about sex. something like, "if you dont enjoy sex, then you're doing it wrong"
What this says to me, is that you need to find a better way/place/method/... of discussing sex issues together.
it doesnt have to be "fun".. but there is probably some way you could do it, that is non-threatening.
maybe through a sex counsellor specifically, rather than a more general marriage coulsellor or something. and you see them separatly or something. Just one idea, but there are lots of other possibilities.

I havent read it, but i would hope that a book like "the sex-starved marriage" would have suggestions on that.

[Dom R]

I found that being direct was the least productive approach,

yeah, but you are a man talking to a woman. whole different ball game

I had to bring it up in a way that didn't make it seem that my W was s*xually deficient.

That's probably always a good idea, though.

[Dom R]

dang, i'm wordy today..

If I went with your plan then I could have sex on vacation 2 or 3 times/year, in exactly one position with oral only if I force myself upon him. [...] That appears to be what he is "comfortable with".

ok, maybe poor/incomplete wording on my part.

there's slight differences between "willing", "comfortable", and "too far"/"too much".

What I meant, was trying to determine what is "too far, or too much", and staying below that.


At the same time, though, keep trying to make him more comfortable with the whole experience as well.

Consider this:

If giving HIM oral, every time... meant that he suddenly became an interested and willing partner with you.. even though you never received it.... would you do that?

I'm not saying that is definately the way to go. I'm just using that as an example of thinking creatively about it.
With a "beginners mind", an all that.. throwing past resentment about it out the window, as it were.

To put it another way... If you were to accept that he simply does not like giving oral sex, and resigned yourself to never having it again, but having your needs met in some other ways that he felt more comfortable with... would that change your perspectives and attitudes on your willingness to give HIM oral?

[karen1]

I want to respond in more depth but I will say this:

I give him oral 9 of 10 times regardless of what I get or don't. I just don't complete the act if we have IC.
It has had no effect on his willingness to provide direct stimulation of almost ANY sort to me.

I have been complimentary and appreciative of his advances and sexual offerings to the point of going overboard only to have him isolate and hide for weeks after.

H has been known to do a feast or famine plan where we have sex with some frequency for a week or so and then...................famine. That happens in the absence of any big crisis or anything so I just don't get it.

I understand the beginners mind concept and kind of feel that I am there in some respects. I have quit dwelling on my deficiencies, what I don't get sexually etc... I have quit trying to manuever sexuality from my H and quit having unproductive talks. I have provided companionship, friendship and partnership. I am not belittling, angry, obviously miserable, rude or anything else that would make the siutation worse. I have "let go" of my ideas of perfection to the extent that I would consider "accepting" a virtually sexless marriage if we reached certain agreements - above board not below as it is now. Right now we have tacit/wordless agreements to not poke at each other's insecurities and it isn't working. I would rather have straightforward agreements.

Karen

[Dom R]

I give him oral 9 of 10 times regardless of what I get or don't. I just don't complete the act if we have IC.
It has had no effect on his willingness to provide direct stimulation of almost ANY sort to me.

hmph. sorry to hear that. i guess he's just sexually selfish then.

I have "let go" of my ideas of perfection to the extent that I would consider "accepting" a virtually sexless marriage if we reached certain agreements - above board not below as it is now. Right now we have tacit/wordless agreements to not poke at each other's insecurities and it isn't working. I would rather have straightforward agreements.

If you were a man, people would be encouraging you to write up sex at a certain frequency, as one of those "agreements".

I dont think you are less entitled to regular sex, just because you are woman. Do you?

You dont have to settle for a "sexless marriage". You shouldnt settle for a sexless marriage. (becuase it definately will eat away at you. you're an HD person,and you will not be happy without sex from your husband, long term.

I have been complimentary and appreciative of his advances and sexual offerings to the point of going overboard only to have him isolate and hide for weeks after.

Now, we're getting somewhere!
How about you start talking about specifics on that?
Not your interpretations of it.. but direct, factual, no exaggeration descriptions and comparisons of times where you did X, and he went into isolation.
(I've noticed that you are prone to exagerration: it is really, Really, really important, that you get that under control, and not exagerrate any more on this forum.
Never, should mean "Never", not "only a few times", to use one example)

[cac4]

what you are implying, seems to be that I'm saying "take what he gives you, and shut up".

no, I'm not "implying" anything. I'm saying it outright. that is what I thought you were saying.

What I am saying is, start by recognizing and acknowleging what your partner is giving you, and be grateful for it.

he's not giving her anything. Its hard to be "grateful" for that.

I can see how what you're saying might apply to a couple with a relatively minor disagreement on frequency...say, "3x/week vs. 5x/week", or something like that. but this ain't that. its "some" vs. "none". big difference. And even when it has been slightly more than "none"...damn hard to be appreciative of something that should {yes, *should*} be a gift, when you have to pry it out of the giver. As someone else said to me earlier in this conversation, its just not normal for someone, man or woman, to not show any desire for sex with their spouse for a whole year.

Whats the difference between "mercy sex", and "I'm not comfortable doing something, but I know you need it, so I choose to meet your needs?"
none whatsoever, if that "thing" is sex, or physical affection in any form.
If that is the standard upon which you base your commitment to marriage... then it ensures that you will cycle through a serious of marriage partners.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by that. I'm still on the first in the "series", and its lasted a lot longer than most.
One of the core required components of a lasting marriage, is how we handle things, when we dont get what we want from our spouse.
or, said another way, how much crap we're willing to tolerate from one another. and that has nothing to do with "quality" of life. who wants to be married for 40 years or more...and be miserable the whole #%$$% time?

oh, and nobody said anything about "sulking in the corner". not accepting crap is just that: not accepting crap.