muddled and angry: Puddle's third thread

[Puddle]

Hey everyone,

On to thread number three, where I can report, thanks to Heim, a new insight into H. But first:

Not turning over every stone to see if that connection can be regained, especially with kids involved, is the coward's way out.

I agree, but have to laugh when I imagine saying that to H: to him certainly another example of how badly I misunderstand him.

So, while you're being honest, you've got to express that you think that things could be OK, BUT that you don't NEED him.

I have said this, in that conversation when H finally understood that I didn't want to just go back, but rather that I believe we have a shot moving forward.

Maybe you could approach conversations with him by asking him to ask you questions.

Thanks, I like this idea. Right now his questions feel a bit overwhelming: "What do you want?" It's too big. Need to break it down.

He's an emotionally immature idiot if he just thinks that he's going to connect with someone and it's going to be ticker-tape parades and kisses for the rest of this life

I don't think he necessarily thinks this (and would certainly disagree with the characterization), but rather that he wants that a priori connection to build on (or something). But yeah, I think he's putting a lot of weight in the wrong place. Again, nothing I can or should tell him.

Same reason I shouldn't have told my W the girls aren't doing well. Just pissed her off (oh yeah, she ain't happy with me).

I think you had every right, indeed the responsibility, to tell W about the girls. It was the way you (described here that you) told her, including your hurt, anger, etc, that probably wasn't a good idea. But you get that, right? OT had a pretty good example of a nonemotional way to do that.

You've gotta detach, Puddle. Let him go. You're hanging on tightly. When I said earlier that it's like he feels trapped and needs to run.

My brain must have been mulling this over, because I really wasn't seeing it. I thought, gee, I let him be, he does what he wants (except for, you know), etc etc. But what I've finally understood---and I think I'm right, that H would agree---is this: While I've been thinking, you want to move out? Fine, move out. I won't ask you to but I won't stop you; H has been thinking he wants to move out, has told me he thinks it's time, and HE'S WAITING FOR ME to tell him I understand and, this is important, AGREE, it's okay, and let's figure out what we need to do.

So Heim, I think you're right. Right now H feels like I have him trapped. He's trying to "do the right thing," work this out together, and I'm just sitting here waiting for him to do what he wants. He's trying to be a stand-up guy, and the fact that I'm not telling him what he wants to hear is making him feel trapped and probably resentful.

So this will have an effect on how I approach talking to him. I feel like I'll gladly discuss logistics and all those things, even though I disagree with what he's doing. He's waiting for me to agree so we can discuss these things.

So back to the email I have in draft. I say: I can accept that the marriage is over and support you in what you want to do while disagreeing with the course you're taking.

What do you think? Does my new insight change any of this?

Also, re the question of what I want. Maybe I shouldn't say anything about him staying in the house, because he clearly doesn't want to. I'm reminded of many R conversations we've had in the past, pre-bomb, where I said, "I want you to WANT to..." Still true, and moot.

Maybe just, "When you decide to move out, I want..." ?

Sorry, but an active father should be fighting to see his kids as often as possible (sorry, personal bias there).

Yeah, I'm a little confused about this. I've always considered him an active father, but right now I have the sense that he's distancing himself from the kids, too. And I think he's concentrating only on me and "what [I] can handle," as he says, re seeing the kids. I wonder what he'd say if I said, "I don't want you to see them, ever. I can't handle it." I'd never do that, of course, but I'd be curious how he'd react.

Has he given you ANY real reason why this connection he's searching for can't be found with you?

He says he's never felt it except in brief flashes throughout the years, so it's not there, period. And considering his definition of connection---"it's just there"---this has a certain kind of logic. Again, my disagreement is moot.

We came together as friends, got along really well, were wonderful partners, and decided to marry. Now he says he can feel so much more (for someone else), and wants to find that out there. That's pretty much it.

Last thought, I'm not sure him moving out is a bad thing. Is he still sleeping with one of your kids? If so, he needs his own space -- couch maybe. I generally think that staying in the same house is best, but if you're starting to feel contempt . . .

He's sleeping in one of the kid's beds and the kids are sleeping with me (we all slept in the big bed before, so he's the only one who's moved). We don't have a couch.

I think he very much wants to move out. Even if we had a guest room, I think he'd be feeling the same way. He's anxious to start his new life, and with my restrictions, couldn't even do that from a guest house.

And considering how standoffish and downright unpleasant he is to be around right now, I'd feel relief if he were gone. Tired of hearing the cursing at ever little thing and seeing him trying to be invisible.

And, hey, that's cool that your BIL says that you'll be snapped up. He's trying to boost you; let him. That's OK, even if you don't want that at the moment.

Yeah, I appreciate his confidence. The idea of dating is really, really scary. I don't go there often.

Desk now has several identifiable piles, which, sadly, is progress.

Well done!

Last night I went out with an old, not very close friend, whom I really like and haven't seen in ages. I told her about the sitch---first not very close person I've told. I decided to tell her because I'm reaching out to friends to spend time with, and I figured if she knew what's going on, she might be more understanding about me wanting to spend time together.

It was awkward, as I expected, but we had a great time and have lined up a couple things to do in the future. And I got another offer to beat up H!

Thanks, everyone. I'll look forward to your thoughts on how to respond to H.

Take care.

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle. Bookmarked your new thread!

Nomo

[Puddle]

Hey Nomo!

Glad to know you're keeping tabs on me! Hope you're doing well.

Okay, here's the draft of the email I've written (but not sent).

H wrote: >Huh. Well since I don't know what's *really* going on inside you I err on the side >of making myself scarce/small.

Puddle: If you do something that steps on my toes---if I need more space, more time, less something else---I'll tell you. I may not do it immediately, but I will be clear.

H wrote: After the Fri talk - yes. I am waiting for us to be on the same page meaning >acceptance that the marriage part is over. Without that there is no "moving on," >no working on questions and issues together.

Puddle: I can accept that the marriage is over and support you in what you want to do while disagreeing with the course you're taking. If and when you decide it's time to move out, I'll do whatever I can to be helpful. I want you to be happy and to be your friend.

If you're waiting for me to want the same thing you do, I can't give you that right now. I respect what you want, how you feel, and where you are, and I ask the same from you.

And I can discuss time/scheduling questions, money, etc. I don't think I have to want the same thing you do to do that. I think it would help me to take these one by one, and specific questions would be simpler to address than larger, more amorphous ones.

Re what I want given the current reality, I want you to spend as much time with the kids as you want. I want to live in the house with them and I want you to continue to provide for us financially. I want us to work together to maintain and improve our relationship and communication. I want time to spend for myself, some of which I may ask you to provide by watching the kids.

End of email. I'd love to have some feedback. Is there something that's unclear? Do I sound neutral enough? Does it seem like I'm beating around the bush or trying to hide my thoughts? H is very sensitive to me not telling him what I think and what I want, so I'm trying to do that. Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

[Nomopo]

Email looks fine to me, I guess. A big part of me is of the more is less philosophy. Your H keeps pushing you to give him what he wants. If you want to accomodate him, fine. If you don't, that's his problem. So I guess what I am getting at is why are you sending a detailed response at all. There may be a good reason, but I want to make sure you have one.

H wrote: >Huh. Well since I don't know what's *really* going on inside you I err on the side >of making myself scarce/small.

Puddle: If you do something that steps on my toes---if I need more space, more time, less something else---I'll tell you. I may not do it immediately, but I will be clear.

This is fine. Does it require any response at all really?

H wrote: After the Fri talk - yes. I am waiting for us to be on the same page meaning >acceptance that the marriage part is over. Without that there is no "moving on," >no working on questions and issues together.

I believe Homer would suggest saying something like this: "I would have preferred to save this marriage [at least for the kids?]. But I see now that you are right, that is impossible. I will work with you to make this as easy as possible."

That's sort of like what you proposed to say, without the "while disagreeing with the course you're taking" and the "If you're waiting for me to want the same thing you do, I can't give you that right now. I respect what you want, how you feel, and where you are, and I ask the same from you." Do you need those extra pieces? Why? What are trying to accomplish?

You also wrote: "I don't think I have to want the same thing you do to do that." Do you need to say this? Why?

Is there something that's unclear? Do I sound neutral enough?

Seems clear.

Does it seem like I'm beating around the bush or trying to hide my thoughts?

Seems like you are hiding feelings a little, but I don't think you need to open your feelings up. What will that accomplish (other than, perhaps, your own personal stated goal of being open and expressing yourself more, but you could do that with others too.

H is very sensitive to me not telling him what I think and what I want, so I'm trying to do that.

Again, his issue. If you want to help him, fine, but you don't have to.

Hope it helps.

Your friend,
Nomo

[MinnesotaMan]

I wish I had some good advice to give, Puddle, but all I can say is that I'm sending positive thoughts your way, that resolves well for you.

[Puddle]

Hey MMan!

Good to hear from you. Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it. Hope you're doing well.

Hey Nomo,

Thanks for writing.

A big part of me is of the more is less philosophy.

More is less? Do you mean less is more?

Your H keeps pushing you to give him what he wants. If you want to accommodate him, fine. If you don't, that's his problem. So I guess what I am getting at is why are you sending a detailed response at all. There may be a good reason, but I want to make sure you have one.

We've figured out that we communicate better via email (or on the phone), so this is a big talk for us, essentially, serial-wise.

I want to accommodate him in as far as I can do it honestly. I want to work on the M, he doesn't. He wants to move out, I'd prefer he stays to work on it. I want him to be happy, and he thinks moving out will help in that direction.

I can't tell him I want what he wants, which is what he wants. What a tongue twister. I'm trying to show him that even though I don't want the same thing, I'm willing to work with him to do what he wants. Do you think I don't need to tell him that?

Again, he keeps saying as long as we're not discussing these things, "we can't move forward." Since he's clearly unhappy in the house and pretty pissy with me, I want him to know that we can, in a sense, move forward with what he wants, even without agreeing.

H wrote: >Huh. Well since I don't know what's *really* going on inside you I err on the side >of making myself scarce/small.

Puddle: If you do something that steps on my toes---if I need more space, more time, less something else---I'll tell you. I may not do it immediately, but I will be clear.

This is fine. Does it require any response at all really?

The second part *is* my response.

I believe Homer would suggest saying something like this: "I would have preferred to save this marriage [at least for the kids?]. But I see now that you are right, that is impossible. I will work with you to make this as easy as possible."

I'm essentially saying that, I guess. The reason I included the part about disagreeing is that I think H is waiting for me to say, "You're right, can't be fixed," and maybe I'm just being stubborn, but I want him to make decisions based on what he wants and take responsibility for them. If I say, "You're right, it's impossible," I think he'll want us to present a united front to the world---parents, friends, etc---including how much in agreement we are. Do you see what I'm saying?

Maybe I'm just not letting go. I don't want to tell people we reached a mutual decision, though. Thoughts?

That's sort of like what you proposed to say, without the "while disagreeing with the course you're taking" and the "If you're waiting for me to want the same thing you do, I can't give you that right now. I respect what you want, how you feel, and where you are, and I ask the same from you." Do you need those extra pieces? Why? What are trying to accomplish?

See above. Trying to "speak truth to H." And I feel like I need those extra bits to respond to his assertion that there's no moving forward, no working on things together, until we're in the same place. Can't we work on things together from different places? H says no.

You also wrote: "I don't think I have to want the same thing you do to do that." Do you need to say this? Why?

Again, see above. Am I being stubborn? petty? selfish? I just want him to take responsibility for his decisions and respect where I am. Can't make him, of course. He wants me to share the responsibility with him, and I won't do it.

Seems like you are hiding feelings a little, but I don't think you need to open your feelings up. What will that accomplish (other than, perhaps, your own personal stated goal of being open and expressing yourself more, but you could do that with others too.

It's a 180 I wanted to show H, but I'm waffling on that one.

Hope it helps.

Very, very much, thanks, Nomo.

Any other thoughts?

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle. Just tried to email you Homer's book. Did you get it?

Thanks for writing.

You're welcome, of course!

A big part of me is of the more is less philosophy.

More is less? Do you mean less is more?

Ooops. Yes, less is more.

Your H keeps pushing you to give him what he wants. If you want to accommodate him, fine. If you don't, that's his problem. So I guess what I am getting at is why are you sending a detailed response at all. There may be a good reason, but I want to make sure you have one.

We've figured out that we communicate better via email (or on the phone), so this is a big talk for us, essentially, serial-wise.

But my question is - - - what are you having a big talk (via email or otherwise? Has he just beat you down, or is there another reason?

I want to accommodate him in as far as I can do it honestly.

Ok, I guess. Maybe that is the answer.

I want to work on the M, he doesn't. He wants to move out, I'd prefer he stays to work on it. I want him to be happy, and he thinks moving out will help in that direction.

Re-read this quote after you read the Homer book. You're fighting him, and Homer says that it will work against you. My personal view (just forming this, BTW, and it's still in progress) is that if you fight them, it will seriously hurt any chance you have. If you give in, then it's either meant to be over and will be over and you can move on or if there is a chance this is how you will find out and most likely succeed. Make sense?

I can't tell him I want what he wants, which is what he wants. What a tongue twister. I'm trying to show him that even though I don't want the same thing, I'm willing to work with him to do what he wants. Do you think I don't need to tell him that?

I think you can say it in a way and still agree with him, per Homer: "I would [have] prefer[red] that this marriage work, but I now see that you are right. It is impossible."

Isn't it impossible with his current mindset anyway? But you don't need to say that, do you?

Again, he keeps saying as long as we're not discussing these things, "we can't move forward." Since he's clearly unhappy in the house and pretty pissy with me, I want him to know that we can, in a sense, move forward with what he wants, even without agreeing.

Homer would say, I think, don't get hung up on the agreeing. That's just about being right (which isn't really important, and even Michele says solutions are more important than being right), and it causes tension, friction, lots of megative emotions in your H about you and it prevents any chance of reconciliation.

[quote=Puddle]H wrote: >Huh. Well since I don't know what's *really* going on inside you I err on the side >of making myself scarce/small.

Puddle: If you do something that steps on my toes---if I need more space, more time, less something else---I'll tell you. I may not do it immediately, but I will be clear.

This is fine. Does it require any response at all really?

The second part *is* my response.

I know. And I meant to say your response sounds fine, but do you really have to respond? Maybe you do, but think about it.

I believe Homer would suggest saying something like this: "I would have preferred to save this marriage [at least for the kids?]. But I see now that you are right, that is impossible. I will work with you to make this as easy as possible."

I'm essentially saying that, I guess. The reason I included the part about disagreeing is that I think H is waiting for me to say, "You're right, can't be fixed," and maybe I'm just being stubborn, but I want him to make decisions based on what he wants and take responsibility for them. If I say, "You're right, it's impossible," I think he'll want us to present a united front to the world---parents, friends, etc---including how much in agreement we are. Do you see what I'm saying?

Oh yes, I see it. In fact I have been doing the exact same thing until about . . . now (maybe). Just starting to consider this Homer thing pretty seriously. If my M is gonna end, I'm not sure I really care about making the world know it was W's doing. Why does that matter? And if that attitude is a block to any chance of reconciliation, then maybe it really doesn't matter. Know what I mean? Plus, if it's going to be over, why not agree with him so you can be friends down the road. This is starting to make sense to me.

Maybe I'm just not letting go. I don't want to tell people we reached a mutual decision, though. Thoughts?

I think you and I are in very close positions here, though I am a little ahead of you and thinking about dragging you with me early. Maybe you will think me later.

That's sort of like what you proposed to say, without the "while disagreeing with the course you're taking" and the "If you're waiting for me to want the same thing you do, I can't give you that right now. I respect what you want, how you feel, and where you are, and I ask the same from you." Do you need those extra pieces? Why? What are trying to accomplish?

See above. Trying to "speak truth to H." And I feel like I need those extra bits to respond to his assertion that there's no moving forward, no working on things together, until we're in the same place. Can't we work on things together from different places? H says no.

Yeah, you can work on things from different places, but who cares? Why is that important to us? Are we still trying to be right and say our WAS are worng? I think so. So what if he thinks he got you to agree? Really, so what??? You'll always know. Your closest friends and family will know. and you'll take away the main thing that is now causing him to fight you, to associate negative feelings with you. I'm sort of thinking out loud here, but it makes some sense to me.

You also wrote: "I don't think I have to want the same thing you do to do that." Do you need to say this? Why?

Again, see above. Am I being stubborn? petty? selfish? I just want him to take responsibility for his decisions and respect where I am. Can't make him, of course. He wants me to share the responsibility with him, and I won't do it.

Again, I am or very recently (hours ago?) have been where you are. Maybe it is stubborn and selfish. I think really we have been trying to take a high ground stand. In other words, trying to be "right". Who cares about right in this fight? All that matters is saving your M if you can, however you can, and if not moving on with your life and making it the best you can.

Here's a question Puddle -- which would you choose: (1) Telling H that you've thought it over, and he's completely right. The M can't work, you need to transition to whatever he envisions, and it is impossible to change things/him/the M, etc. Basically agree 100% with all he says and save your M! Or (2) be honest with yourself and H and everyone else that you will always blame him for giving up, and that you stand by your vows, and think the M can be save but have him go push through a D?

In other words, is being right/honest more important than saving your M? Of course, neither of us knows for sure that agreeing 100% with them and in a sense dropping the rope will work, but it might? It makes some sense. It seems to have worked in many other sitches (a common theme in the success stories is it happens when they fully detach and move on).

Hugs,
Nomo

PS - get my email????

PSS - back to reading.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

I'll be the devils advocate now. I seem to always advise opposite of what others may say.

If it was me, I'd definitely not make the statement ""I would have preferred to save this marriage [at least for the kids?]. But I see now that you are right, that is impossible. I will work with you to make this as easy as possible."

And your statement I believe may be too vague.

You want him to know that you believe the OLD M is dead. Old M is the key here. You don't want him to think an M with you is impossible.

I told my H...even though he knew already I didn't want a D, that I totally agree with him that the M was aweful. I never want to be in a M like that again, and I did't want him to either. I also said that I would like to start a new marriage etc etc. however, that wouldn't be right for you. I think stating something like, I do agree with you that the M is over. I don't want either of us to be in an M like that. We both deserve better. I understand that you feel you could find what you deserve elsewhere, but that is where we differ. I hope that you can respect my feelings on that, as I am trying to respect yours too.

and maybe saying... I do not want you to hate living here. It is ultimately your choice. I may never agree with you, but I cannot control your life. Your life is your own.

I did like most of what you wrote though. although not so much feeling in it. I think sharing your feelings as you have been trying to do is good. You know that was a problem in your R. With your M being saved is your goal right now, that being open with your H is a good thing, as long as he's giving signs of positive steps not negative steps. And as long as your not accusing/blaming.

sorry, gotta go, I'll pray you say the right things

[Nomopo]

ST,

I certainly don't pretent to have this all figured out, but I am re-thinking some of my old positions. Let me ask you about this:

You want him to know that you believe the OLD M is dead. Old M is the key here. You don't want him to think an M with you is impossible.

That means you need to fight him on this point, or at least resist, which is an attempt at control, and adds pressure. That may not be good, and may be bad. What's the fear? I think the fear is if we say "a M with me IS impossible," then our spouses will all of a sudden be free to run off and file. But the truth is, they're free to do that today. But they're not. Why not? Who knows? Maybe because they aren't sure. But they can't focus on that or admit that, because they are occupied fighting us while we subtly resist.

My thought is if they really are just waiting for us to say "you're right," before they divorce us, it's coming any way (and resisting will just make it slower and more painful).

I think stating something like, I do agree with you that the M is over. I don't want either of us to be in an M like that. We both deserve better. I understand that you feel you could find what you deserve elsewhere, but that is where we differ. I hope that you can respect my feelings on that, as I am trying to respect yours too.

I like it up to the point where you say "but that is where we differ." Why do you need to say this? Why do you need to point this out to H? It's just going to make him fight more, resist more, be mad, be unhappy, feel pressured, etc.

With your M being saved is your goal right now, that being open with your H is a good thing, as long as he's giving signs of positive steps not negative steps.

Puddle, is he giving signs of positive steps or negative steps? How's it been working?

Again, I'm just starting to formulate these new thoughts, so I thought I would throw them out there. Could be wrong, but feels kind of right.

Later,
Nomo

[Puddle]

Hey ST! Thanks for writing. I totally understand what you're saying---heck, you're pretty much agreeing with me
and I'm also trying to get my mind around Nomo's point, which makes sense to me as well.

Two things here: 1) I want H to stand up and take responsibility for the fact that he's doing something TO me and the kids, instead of the two of us doing something together. This may never happen, and one thing I know for sure is, it's p*ssing him off.

2) If I stand firm and insist on speaking truth to H, a few things may happen, none of which I can control. H may be so angry/frustrated with me that our R is further damaged. He may lash out at me financially, which I very much want to avoid. H may feel like we're fighting one another instead of working together (I can pretty much guarantee that one's true), and our R will end completely.

So, back to Nomo's question: Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? Ugh.

You want him to know that you believe the OLD M is dead. Old M is the key here. You don't want him to think an M with you is impossible.

That means you need to fight him on this point, or at least resist, which is an attempt at control, and adds pressure. That may not be good, and may be bad.

Nomo, when H asked me "How could you just go back?" and I told him I didn't want to go back, he finally understood for the first time that I wasn't clawing onto the past but rather hoping for a new future, still with him. It was the first, and possibly only, time during this whole thing where he seemed to understand what I was saying. It seemed to be a real a-ha moment for him. Before that he thought I was just clinging on to what was, out of fear, maybe desperation, and due to being too attached to my role as W.

But the truth is, they're free to do that today. But they're not. Why not? Who knows? Maybe because they aren't sure. But they can't focus on that or admit that, because they are occupied fighting us while we subtly resist.

Yes, they're free today. I think my H would say he's trying to do the right thing by me, and I'm just too slow, too dense to get it.

My thought is if they really are just waiting for us to say "you're right," before they divorce us, it's coming any way (and resisting will just make it slower and more painful).

I think this is *exactly* where I am. H doesn't have a doubt in his tiny mind, and to him, I'm the one making it slow and painful (not to mention irritating as hell).

Puddle, is he giving signs of positive steps or negative steps? How's it been working?

Well Dr. Phil... H shows me positive signs as long as I'm willing to talk to him, not so much about the R, but about "where we go from here." I opened up to him the other night, and while he seemed to take it in, he told me later some things I said bothered him, and he's trying to distill them so he can articulate them to me. When I'm talking "moving forward" instead of discussing how I feel about where we are, he's right there.

Maybe I just need to drop all discussion of how I feel about where we are, what I think of him right now, etc, and just get down to brass tacks. Maybe I can just not say a thing about all that and move forward, as he says. He seems to want to move forward with me, in a weird sense, instead of without me, which is what he feels I'm agitating for (and I am, in a way---just do your worst, take responsibility, and I'll deal).

Thanks, ST and Nomo. This kind of discussion is not only useful but intellectually stimulating and fun! And we all need more fun, that's for sure (except maybe Nomo )

Take care, everyone. All input welcome.