muddled and angry: Puddle's sencond thread

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

I'm happy to hear from you and to know that the 2x4s you're getting haven't knocked you out completely.

As I procrastinate from cleaning my desk, I'm struck once again how odd of a duck your H is.

I'm beginning to wonder what this oddness says about me. When I used to say ILY to H he'd ask, "Why?" He was so down on himself. Finally one day I said to him, "Look, you criticize yourself constantly, talk about what a loser you are. What does that say about me? How much of an idiot would I have to be to love someone who were such a loser?" He took the point. And obviously has come a long way since then, but not as far as he'd like to think, I think. Now clean your desk.

Has he talked at all to you about this "new" person that he is?

This is a really good question. Surprisingly little. All he's told me is that he wants to feel connection with someone (that's inherently there, not with me, not one he has to work on), and that he wants to get up for work on time and start dressing like a grownup. His alarm went off at 6 this morning and he was still asleep when I got in the shower at 7. Not much headway there.

But from what he's told me and what I can see, he hasn't done any major soul-searching beyond the "connection" thing. He still seems largely morose and working all the time. Right now if I had to guess, I'd say he'd be one of those people who finds a "connection" and is later shocked that it didn't fix things. I don't see any sense that his happiness has to be an internal thing. He's still looking for that other to complete him, I think.

But again, he hasn't said a lot. Maybe I'll ask him what kind of person he'd like to be. Does that count as R talk?

If he's not told his parents, seems to me he's a bit ashamed/unsure of what he's doing, but that might be reading too much into things.

He's said he'd rather tell them when it's a done deal so they don't feel like they can/should jump in with advice. I think he wants my support, but I think what'll end up happening is he'll move out (with my support and disagreement) and tell them then. But honestly, he doesn't want to have to defend himself, especially to his wonderful father and his frighteningly outspoken stepmother.

He seems to want to know how you feel though, tell him if he asks.

Yeah, I guess that's what I'll do.

One thought just struck me, it's like your H feels trapped/needed by you and that makes him want to run.

Interesting thought. What makes you say that?

Do your best to stop giving him that impression and stop the chase (yeah, ironic me giving anyone that advice, I know).

I'll think more about it, but I don't feel like I'm chasing. Though perhaps just knowing that I don't want to separate feels like chasing to him. Maybe I'll focus more with him on the "I'll support you in doing whatever you need to do" aspect. Any other pointers?

Work on the separation with him. You can either go with it or fight it. Fighting it is going to make him want to run further faster. Be fair to yourself, but give him what he wants.

Maybe that's the advice right there. I've been reaching that point myself: even though talking separation and money feels very final and scary, I'm going to have to go there, and not kicking and screaming.

Keep taking care of yourself and making yourself more appealing. Make it hard for him to want to leave you.

It feels right now like it's shockingly easy. But thanks, I'll try. My BIL said the other day I'd be "snapped right up," but that idea is still sickening to me. Don't want to be snapped up.

I'm going to catch up on you in hte next few days and try to give you some real thoughts, but hope those will do for now

I appreciate it, Heim. I know you're in the thick of it yourself, but I'm grateful for your thoughts. Bunny hill, here we come!

Take care.

[Not Much Left]

ERRRRR!!!!
Puddle
I am sitting here reading this and thinking this simple thought. This all boils down to our Spouse not wanting to do any work and that love or happiness "just happens". Until they learn this is only true for a few months to a year while u "fall in love" and it takes NO work and everthing is easy and happy, they will never "wake up" as we all want our respective spouse's to do.

It B.S., that's my view.

[Puddle]

Yes, CVA, I think you're right. H just believes that love happens. I'm with you in the BS definition, but alas, it'll only help with the next R.

Okay, so here's the next question. In response to my question to H whether he's waiting for us to be on the same page before we talk, he says "I am waiting for us to be on the same page,
meaning acceptance that the marriage part is over. Without that there is no "moving on," no working on questions and issues together."

My drafted response is "I can accept that the marriage is over and support you in what you want to do while disagreeing with the course you're taking."

Comments, please.

While writing that I remembered that during our last big talk he got back to "how can you disagree?" and I said, "I don't want to discuss that anymore." He keeps trying to convince me and he's frustrated. The response I drafted above is likely to send him back around the bend, but I feel like it's honest and fair.

Also he says ">Huh. Well since I don't know what's *really* going on inside you I err on the side >of making myself scarce/small." Again, his "You're not telling me what you really think."

I responded (in draft with) "If you do something that steps on my toes---if I need more space, more time, less something else---I'll tell you. I may not do it immediately, but I will be clear."

I have to run, but I want to run some more by you all before I send it. Thanks.

[Heimlich]

Ah, shoot. I can't find it, but I've read in a few ebooks that saying something like:
You are right. Our marriage is over and can't survive right now. I feel that with time, things could be different and our life together is a lot to walk away from without turning over every stone."

Shoot, Puddle. I'll most likely stumble across the wording after you send your email.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

How's the desk?

You are right. Our marriage is over and can't survive right now. I feel that with time, things could be different and our life together is a lot to walk away from without turning over every stone."

I'm pretty sure I've said something almost exactly like that. Right now I feel like if I do the "things could be different in time" thing he'll just hear that as nagging, and more proof that I'm completely deluded.

Okay, on to the next question (though I'm still anxious to hear from you all about the two quotes I drafted above): H wants to know what I think, what I want given the current reality.

Re what I think: I don't think anything I can tell H about what I think will be productive in the least. My thoughts run along these lines:

1) You believe love and connection fall out of the sky; I believe they are achieved through behavior and intention.

2) You think the kids will be fine depending on how we respond, mostly how *I* respond. I believe the kids will be fine, but not as fine as they would be if they had two parents committed to being happy together.

3) You believe the conclusion you've reached isn't a choice, but rather a revelation of what you must do to have the possibility of being happy; I disagree.

I think these are the big ones, and then there's how I feel, which includes hurt that this connection H is looking for---even its mere possibility---eclipses everything we have; hurt that he seems to downplay the effect of his decision on my life, which is tectonic. Then there's the anger I expressed to him, and the extreme disappointment and downright contempt I feel for him sometimes (as yet unmentioned).

But maybe he doesn't mean he wants to know what I think about the sitch. I don't know (much anymore).

Re what I want: what the hell can I possibly say? That sounds like lawyer stuff. But I think what I want right now is for H to stay in the house as long as he's able to abide by my "restrictions," as he calls them, of keeping women and contact with women out of the family home. (By the way, the other night he said I was asking him to live a double life regarding those.) Maybe just say I want to him to stay as long as he wants to?

I want him to see the kids as often as he wants to, and when he moves out to take them on the occasional weekend (or perhaps every other weekend, or something).

I want him to support us financially forever. Seriously, I really do. Probably not the smartest thing to say, though.

Okay, so there are all the questions. Help please. All feedback welcome.

[Heimlich]

Puddle,
As one would expect, I agree 100% with CVA. Connection in a long-term R doesn't just happen by accident, it takes work. Not turning over every stone to see if that connection can be regained, especially with kids involved, is the coward's way out.

I don't know if this is going to make any sense, Puddle, but here goes. Seems like you have to do two, mutually exclusive things:
1. You have to be brutally honest with your H. He seems to want it. It seems like this was something missing in your R in the past -- you not being emotionally available/honest with him. He's asking for it. Tell him.
2. At the same time, you need to not need him. You've got to believe in your bones that staying with him is a preferance, not a need (trust me, I'm staggering toward this myself. Getting there, in zigs and zags).

So, while you're being honest, you've got to express that you think that things could be OK, BUT that you don't NEED him. Maybe you could approach conversations with him by asking him to ask you questions. Like you said, restating what you've said already is counterproductive. As hard as it is, don't (or at least try not to).

He's an emotionally immature idiot if he just thinks that he's going to connect with someone and it's going to be ticker-tape parades and kisses for the rest of this life (sorry, just finished watching The War on PBS. Excellent, by the way). You know that. You can't tell him that, because, well, you know. Same reason I shouldn't have told my W the girls aren't doing well. Just pissed her off (oh yeah, she ain't happy with me).

You've gotta detach, Puddle. Let him go. You're hanging on tightly. When I said earlier that it's like he feels trapped and needs to run. It's just a gut feeling on my part, ignore freely, by the way, that with his 'revelation' of his 'new self' being a father and husband isn't part of that deal. Almost like he's scared to stand up and be the man he should be. You said that he's not really changed and that you're hoping he'll take the kids every other weekend. Sorry, but an active father should be fighting to see his kids as often as possible (sorry, personal bias there).

Has he given you ANY real reason why this connection he's searching for can't be found with you?

Last thought, I'm not sure him moving out is a bad thing. Is he still sleeping with one of your kids? If so, he needs his own space -- couch maybe. I generally think that staying in the same house is best, but if you're starting to feel contempt . . .

And, hey, that's cool that your BIL says that you'll be snapped up. He's trying to boost you; let him. That's OK, even if you don't want that at the moment.

Desk now has several identifiable piles, which, sadly, is progress.