I can't remember

[karen1]

Wow, I am suprised and gratified by all the great thoughts and suggestions. I think you have all had some useful and terrific thoughts.

Ellie,
I emailed you. I DO need some guidance on the Graves.

To those who think that his occasional issue with an uncooperative member weighs in here - I think so too. It hasn't happened in a long time but it is almost as if he thinks/knows that if he waits long enough then it won't be an issue. Also, due to the early ED issues the foreplay did get perfunctory at best. It was as if both of us were afraid that once he was "ready" we needed to get going lest something bad happen.

There were a couple of occasions early in the R that our encounters consisted of get H started/proceed with IC/stop - get H re-started/ proceed with IC. Lather. Rinse. Repeat until finally H would reach a certain point of no return. Then, I got tired of focusing on his E all the time. I realized it was leading down an unproductive road and would just grab him and go down on him to completion with no return expectation - he loved that and I did it about once or twice/month. I didn't do it with any expectations for return but when I NEVER got a similar return well....it just wasn't as much fun anymore.

To those who see my backing off of him as being game playing - it really isn't. This isn't a game to me. It is an important part of my life. When I decided to stop initiating I didn't do it with the expecation that he would step in but with the hope that he might and with the understanding that if he didn't I would have an "answer" of sorts. Sometimes people seem to think that we HD women are sexual badgerers, that we are seething pits of need where that need for sex is readily and annoyingly apparent at all times. Well, maybe some of us are but I'm not and I got tired of feeling as if my H thought that. I know that all of the quick foreplay followed by hurry-up IC-so the E isn't a problem - did nothing for my image as wanting a quality sexual R or even for the appearance that I actually care about foreplay, long kisses etc... Instead, I appeared to only want him for his d*ck (although he has never voiced this).

Before I decided to stop initiating I already had offered, brought up, suggested in writing alternate sexual activities, schedules etc... I had already told him my needs, described the vast array of sexual behaviors I am comfortable with or interested in etc.... I wouldn't call this subtle but to Corri's point - the way I phrased things might be called subtle. My nature is to confront but to do so judiciously and gently. It hasn't worked here - has it? Corri - I have stepped out the comfort zone and sometimes it has met with success and sometimes with annoyance and some really CRAP sex. So, I got to where I feel a little like a big idiot for doing that.

Onwards and upwards...Scott and Lil certainly have the vibe that works for H. I had a little giggle but I want you both to know that I am seriously considering how to work that vibe into our life. Corri - you have good points too even if at various times in the past H has actively resisted "Honey, I want you to do x,y and z" - as in he just wouldn't do it but would just kinda stroke my arm or leg and wait for me to act. I need to revisit it anyway. When we dated I used to do a lot of teasing H - sitting on his lap for a moment, looking into his eyes and making some kind of sexual remark, saying things like "nice outfit" when he walks across the bedroom naked etc.... I quit doing most of this because it felt like pressure, trying too hard or something.

As is usual in my household, this weekend held many unforseen events that completely precluded a heart to heart - sick baby, shuttling DS15 back and forth to very first job (sigh, sniff), birthday party for DD9, church and so on. I am looking forward to reading Radical Honesty and finding ways to utilize it in my ridiculous life without the need for endless 2 hours "sit downs".

We had a little "spat" on Saturday. H's friend spent the night unexpectedly (long story) and so we were teasing H about something he bought for the house, then H kinda grouchily starting giving me crap about something I bought for the house but inflating the price by 3x. I finally said, "You need to stop exaggerating what I spent. That isn't right and it p*sses me off." Well then he let me know that he didn't appreciate my teasing him about the thing he bought that I should have said I didn't like it etc... I told him I did, in fact, like it but that I was teasing his analness in choosing that item (something that he usually doesn't mind being teased about). We apologized and that was it. It probably wasn't radically honest because the tape that plays in the background probably goes - "Lets fight about this since the elephant in the room (sex) can't be dealt with right now."

Karen

[OG_Lou]

"Lets fight about this since the elephant in the room (sex) can't be dealt with right now."
Boy, that hit home. I bet that is so true for many couples.

To those who see my backing off of him as being game playing - it really isn't.
Karen, I never saw it as game playing. I visualize you as needing more, deserving more than you are getting. I see you as fighting for more but settling for what your spouse will contribute to the sexual relationship.

When you post what your H does as a father, worker, I see a strong capable man. He does more family things for the kids than I did, so I respect him in that area.

No, I don't see you playing a game. I see you protecting Karen's soul, like I do sometimes when I interact with BB.

Lou

[Dom R]

*wave*

you didnt respond to my quickie note to you this morning.. maybe you missed it, maybe you thought it was just a joke... but I think it is actually relevant. What you just wrote, underscores that, I think.

specifically:

When we dated I used to do a lot of teasing H - sitting on his lap for a moment, looking into his eyes and making some kind of sexual remark, saying things like "nice outfit" when he walks across the bedroom naked etc.... I quit doing most of this because it felt like pressure, trying too hard or something.

If we were to look at what you wrote, and pretend it was written by a husband about his wife, it MIGHT be interpreted as,
"when I dated my wife, I used to do much more playful stuff, that might be considered verbal foreplay, and so forth. But, now we're married, I dont do that any more. "

Wouldnt the reaction from women then be, "you insensitive male jerk! foreplay shouldnt stop once you get married!"

As support for this possibility... didnt you mention that you used to have a whoole lot more sex "while you were dating" ?

[Dom R]

No, I don't see you playing a game. I see you protecting Karen's soul, like I do sometimes when I interact with BB.

What Karen did (choice to stop initiating sex for months on end], wasnt "protection". It was a deliberate choice and plan of action, with the hope of getting a particular outcome from her husband.
ok, she didnt have an "expectation of winning".
in some ways, that makes it even more a matter of "playing games". How many games do you play, where you already know at the beginning that you are going to win?

it's wasnt a very good game to play, though, in my opinion.
(maybe dodgeball would have been better.
"you're going to just stand there, and do NOTHING??

*whack*

)

[Dom R]

MORe stuff.. hopefully useful to you
You put a lot of effort in writing down your feelings, so I'm gonna put lots o effort in giving you feedback on em.

he loved that and I did it about once or twice/month. I didn't do it with any expectations for return but when I NEVER got a similar return well....it just wasn't as much fun anymore.

sooo.. how many times, did you actually ask for it to be returned?
If you literally never got it back... one might think that you never asked. directly asked, anyways

NB: one of the most important parts about "radical honesty", is about learning how to be truely direct, in what you tell your spouse.

"honey, I think when we ML it's soo special to me, and it really brings out positive feelings for me. i hope it does to you to... [15 minutes later] .. and it would be really nice if I felt that you felt the same way, and showed it to me" ..
would NOT be "radically honest".

"honey, I have fun doing xxx to you. I'm feeling really left out that you never do xxx to me back, though"...
THAT, is RH



and, probably last comment I have about your post:

As is usual in my household, this weekend held many unforseen events

yup. i know what it is like to be in such a household.
Putting off the discussion, really didnt help much, did it?
Timing IS important.. if someone is completely wiped from something right at the moement, then obviously, talking about deep stuff, is a bad idea. But waiting "until everything is peace and light", just doesnt work, in an ultra-busy household like yours. You will build up issues faster than you get the chance to talk about them.

Rather than 2 hour drag-out stuff... maybe you might choose to do single-issue, short, "radically honest" talks (15 minutes) now and again.

[karen1]

Dom,

I wasn't being accurate. When we were dating I did a lot more teasing etc... AND our sexual R went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down BEFORE we got married despite that. We even went to see a counselor about it where I was reassured that it was because of a number of "not Karen" issues. Great! So, we had more sex on our honeymoon - initiated by him and me and we came back from the honeymoon and resumed the issues.

I had more sexual confidence then so H's relative LD didn't dampen my spirit quite as much and I still continued to tease etc.... Marriage didn't change it - H's repeated lack of emotional enagagement did. The other thing that changed the foreplay itself was the cycle of dealing with H's high level of sexual discomfort - HE wanted to kind of move things along and get things over with once there was foreplay going on. AND Dom, I was, in fact, the provider of most of the foreplay - I was the initiater of the kisses, the footrubs, the VAST majority of the oral sex, body kissing etc.... I kissed H on the earlobe, the nape of neck. I got out the massage oil and gave him a massage.

No, it isn't at all similar to the guy who doesn't provide all the bells and whistles and in the meantime just expects sex after the dating is over. That guy usually isn't complimenting his W, taking emotional risks in sharing things with her, hasn't verbalized sh*t to her about his emotional interior. He has merely gotten lazy about the bells and whistles and expects to say, "Hey honey, let's do it" and get an enthusiastic response.

What I have done is to detach myself from a bad pattern of relating. I have stayed engaged in the relationship on every level except I have stopped chasing someone who was constantly running the other direction while hoping (stupidly not in a calculating way) that MAYBE he might turn around and see why I stopped or failing that, might acknowledge that he was running.

Have you read Passionate Marriage? This is about differentiation. Passionate Marriage asks the question of the relentlessly HD spouse - "Why do you want sex so badly with someone who clearly doesn't want it? What is it about YOU that makes that kind of interaction okay?" Well, the answer is fusion. In emotionally fused relating we derive our own okayness from our spouses response to us instead of from ourselves. Just because I'm not initiating with my H doesn't mean I don't want sex. If I don't initiate with my H just to "prove a point" or to get him to react a certain way - that is fusion and it is a game as you have suggested. That isn't what I'm doing (and Lou is right it is somewhat self protective). However, this is also the unfused me who is saying "I am attractive and sexy and I like sex and mostly I like sex with persons who like sex with me. So, let me know. If you are game I am." In this way I quit throwing myself up against a brick wall. I treat myself like a person of sexual worth. And I leave room for him to do the same. If he cares about our sex life then he has two choices to resolve the dilemma he can (a)initiate or (b)ask me why I'm not. He hasn't done either and while I'm not ok with that I am ok with my self where I used to not be ok during our many and sundry sexual droughts. I'm not trying to be right I'm trying to be happy and to let him find his happiness too.



Karen

[karen1]

Dom,

I asked for a return once ------ he didn't say anything but stroked me instead and kind of half heartedly. I was always told not to discuss sex while having sex but short of adressing right then and right there the sexual rudeness being displayed I could never figure out just what to say.

I don't mean discussions to take 2 hours but once they start they always do. Once they start they always involve my H giving a lengthy diatribe of all the stresses in his life as if they are supposed to explain lack of engagement in the R forever more.

Karen

[Dom R]

hiya...

I'm going to mention something... not to brag, but hopefuly, to help you feel more willing to take my suggestions:

Did you notice, that I was basically right on the money, that you never really asked?

Sorry, but asking one time, doesnt count
asking one time, and then never asking again, is tantamount to saying "ok i really dont need that from you. 'cause we tried it once and I didnt like it and it's just not important to me".

Instead of making clear it was important to you... you gave up, and went silent.
Hmm.... kinda like the whole bigger picture on sex frequency too.

I asked for a return once ------ he didn't say anything but stroked me instead and kind of half heartedly. I was always told not to discuss sex while having sex but short of adressing right then and right there the sexual rudeness being displayed I could never figure out just what to say.

To me, that says that he is possibly shy about it, and doesnt really know what to do. (and/or is initially uncomfortable with the idea, because it's new and "different")
That says to me, that he needs encouragement. (or maybe, for you to just totally dominate him, and tell him what to do. ahahaha...)

As far as "discussing during sex"...
There's a difference between "discussing", and "communicating".

Discussing is, "well, I think that such and such is a good idea. what do you think? oh really? well, that's interesting, and I'd say..."

Communicating, in contrast, can take many forms, and communicating during sex, is always good!.
It's not about rudeness, it's about communicating with each other about your needs and enjoyment.





....warning.... graphic stuff ahead....




Smiling and saying "uhuh!" is communicating. A happy moan is communicating. Saying "owch" is communicating.
"A bit to the left"/"harder"/"slower" is communicating.

opening your legs and wiggling is communicating.

Telling him, "dammit, eat my p**** NOW!" [with optional "you worthless dog/ferengi/b'tak scum"] is communicating.

So is grabbing his head by the hair and positioning him there
Or, for that matter, positioning yourself. (ie: if you've got him on his back, and you are first "taking care of" him from on top
sneak attack 69? heh.
it's surprising what people end up doing, when the hormones are freely rushing around the body.


Some styles of communication are more effective than others. Some work better on different days. But the most important thing, is to communicate, and keep those communication lines open, during the whole event.

I think that there are two basic types of communication during sex:

type 1: "I'd like you to ...." [try this/stop that/over there..]

type 2: "Oooh, i LIKE THAT!" (maybe words, or just sounds, or
other styles of "communicating"

(Note that I omitted the "I dont like that" part. that is actually deliberate. thats' best for afterwards, not before)

I think that if you try about 5-10% of type 1, and 90% type 2, you might be a whole lot happier with your sex life.

so far, sounds like you've tried about 0.0001% of type 1.
I'm guessing that perhaps you havent done so much type 2 either.
Or at least, not in a style that really triggers him.

Heh... if there are 5 relationship "love languages", maybe there are also [?] different "sex languages"?

----------------------------------------

I don't mean discussions to take 2 hours but once they start they always do. Once they start they always involve my H giving a lengthy diatribe of all the stresses in his life as if they are supposed to explain lack of engagement in the R forever more.

ok, so you two have a major problem in how you discuss things.
I think that it is critical that you have to short-circuit this somehow, and work out a better model on how to discuss things. Not to mention an agreed-upon set of priorities.

one way would be... (surprise surprise) the direct approach

You could tell him, either as soon as he starts, but perhaps even better up front:


"Honey, I know that you have various stresses in your life already. The thing is, they are pretty much all of your choosing.
I acknowlege that they can make things tough or tiring for you, but they are messing up our marriage. So, if you want to tell me that XYZ is stressing you right now, and it's getting in the way of you taking care of our marriage: follow that up with, What are you going to do about getting RID OF the stress from XYZ?
If you would like my help in that, I would love to help you in any way I can... so long as what I do, involves you putting less stress/energy into XYZ, and so freeing up more energy into us.

[optional: "I havent noticed that me leaving you alone, helps our marriage any. It just seems to give you more room to accumulate even more work stress"]

If, on the other hand, they are unavoidable and non-improvable "because of your job", then it's time for you to get a different job. Unless you want to tell me that your job is more important to you than our marriage."




Wouldnt you say that pretty effectively cuts off his whole line of avoidance?

You might even want to make this, the first "15 minute talk" in and of itself.
Then, some other day, tackle 1 of the other major issues beween you.


Hope you find this useful.


PS: he's NEVER "gone down" on you? oh my goodness you poor woman
no wonder you're sexually frustrated

[cac4]

I can relate to that...I think, really, I have done the same thing, more or less, irt the "detaching" thing...not initiating, etc.
I think maybe I even came to the same basic conclusion before reading some of the books that are bandied about here, but the quote you mention from Schnarch kind of cemented it:
Why do you want sex so badly with someone who clearly doesn't want it?
{queue: car-screeching-brake-sound, needle-scratch-on-LP-sound}

um...good question.

"What is it about YOU that makes that kind of interaction okay?"

Who said it was?

as for the rest, I may have taken a slightly different route, but arrived in the same place, anyway.

"...However, this is also the unfused me who is saying "I am attractive and sexy...
couldn't say about the "fusion", but as to the rest, the evidence overwhelminly favors the opposite conclusion.
...mostly I like sex with persons who like sex with me.
I wouldn't actually know, but it certainly seems logical.
In this way I quit throwing myself up against a brick wall.
Yes. This, I totaly understand.
I treat myself like a person of sexual worth. Hmm. not so sure about that. But it does seem to help to have some understanding, it doesn't do much to solve the problem. And some would call this "withdrawing", and say that it is bad. Totally self-defensive, imo.
Anyway...I understand where you're coming from.