'Passive Speak' in MLC

[BaseballAnnie]

This all so resonates with me, so much of this sounds so familiar.

I haven't had insight into a lot of what is going on in his "mind" because we have mercifully had minimal contact. I got some vicious spew early on when he was pushing for me to hurry and divorce, and crap along the lines of, "you think this is funny don't you?", "you enjoy manipulating me," and "I can see you are enjoying this," all in response to my unwillingness to consent to a settlement that gave him all of the assets and me all of the debt. You just can't make it up...

Since then, as I said, my conversations and emails with him have been relatively minimal, but what I have heard from his former boss, who is my friend, is that he proclaimed that he had "always lived his life for everyone else, now it was his turn." He even went so far as to declare this in a job interview when quizzed about the bizarre working condition demands he was making. Coffee ran through my nose when I heard it.

It's so far removed from reality of our marriage to be other worldly. Every move we made, every choice that was made in our marriage, every life change was precipitated by either his expression of "I want this" or "I can't do this." It's also so inconsistent with this humble and honest and earnest man that I married, that high moral plane you all were discussing earlier.

But you can see the connection to his childhood; I attribute it to "baby boy" speak. Pedro is the last son of four, and the child immediately before the only girl. He was essentially born and then dumped to be raised by wolves. His older brothers controlled his every move, which he both found comfort in and resented. His parents took no interest in him. His father was treading water to support this huge family on one income; his mother was obsessed with his baby sister.

It's just so sad, that someone reaches 50 and is completely paralyzed by something that happened so long ago, and more importantly, something they refuse to face head on and find a way to reconcile.

[almosthopeful]

Jaybee - it is odd how differently they go through this. I would say that my h is just about where he was, emotionally, two years ago. He made some progress in 2006, and spent most of 2007 going backwards, further and further into the tunnel again, until he is about where he started. Getting angry and blaming everyone but himself again. Telling all the same tired lies about our relationship. In fact the lies are more pronounced and odder . . . does anyone else have a MLCer who is getting worse and worse.

Angelica,
I do think my XH is about where he was emotionally two years ago, although to be fair and honest, his conversations with me are so entirely superficial it would be hard to be certain. I attribute this in part to his having chosen a T who called himself a "life coach" and who XH used to help him "move forward". Not much introspection on XH's part, I'd guess.

I suspect he does tell lies about the mutuality of our D, at least to anyone new who is likely to believe it. His preferred view of himself wouldn't allow him to say out loud "I Dd my wife of 21 years against her will!"

Someone just posted about "splitting up"...I went back through the thread quickly to see if I could find who but couldn't...this just sets me off! When XH dropped the bomb, that was his language "we are going to split up." My jaw dropped...splitting up is something teenagers do. Not (then) 55 year-old men who have been married for 19 years. I asked him straight out, what do you mean? This was before I discovered DB, and I pushed it until he said the word divorce out loud. But believe me, it took some pushing. Talk about passivity!

Whew, I guess my emotions sometimes go back two years as well. Oh well, progress, not perfection on this journey.

Again in fairness, I believe my XH and many others seem to be suffering the covert depression that Silent sons and other books describe. And in my XH's case, he really was a victim of his genuinely awful and unacceptable childhood...but he has never chosen to resolve that first, and then "move forward."

Hugs to all.
AH

[heartbreak2]

Hi All

I read this thread last night and thought about it and realized when H's mlc really started.

I have heard most of the things said here.

All of our mutual friends and his partners at work were told.
"WE had been having problems for yrs. and WE decided to get a D."

but of course he had to say this to continue to live in the fantasy world for anything else said might awaken him to reality.

He is a surgeon one of the best and is one of the top Dr.s in the US according to recent polls and magazine articles I just found out. Residents and Interns have always loved to work with him and suddenly in the last 2 yrs they hate working with him. I heard this from an OR tech. He gets mad and this is a man who never gets mad and has patience of steel to do what he does and train a surgeon while doing it.

It is now 16 months and the wk the D was being processed he emailed me that "neither of us are perfect so don't lay guilt on me." He then put the D on hold. He brought it up again this week after 4 wks of ignoring I exist and me being still and nice. Only to go into hiding again.

Ok??? self induced guilt happening here folks !!!

The MLC timeline I did out a long time ago and placed him at 2-3 yrs def. 2. Well after seeing BIL 2 wks ago who is 55 and in MLC again I believe. He went through it 7 yrs ago. His wife told him one day I am leaving and he said ... there's the door. So she walked and is doing quite well. He was having an A and is still with the woman 7 yrs later..
funny his view of M... it is a business deal and every 5 yrs the contract should be up for renewal and if one wants out that is fine. Don't even get me started I wanted to hit him with a shovel but he has not brain to begin with.

so my SIL came to spend a week with H in May..she is 52 married to a great guy who drinks when unhappy and he is drinking again.
She had a heart attack 2 yrs ago smokes and is 60 lbs overweight.
pretty much does nothing but ebay and work and estate sale shop.
Has not spent time with her dad for the last 3 yrs unless a mandatory family event.

Ok this is the put them all in MLC... mom died 7 yrs ago suddenly in her sleep. Was not acutely ill had MS.
Dad went into depression big time. This person he had not paid attention to in yrs and slept in a different bedroom for 20 yrs was gone. He found a girlfriend... 3 yrs later. So well that is great but... she is 20 or so yrs younger than him. A mindless person who my BIL describes as beige inside and out and can't speak in complete sentences. So pretty much hates kids so the grandchildren are not dumped. She refused to get to know my SIL or I. My FIL was like my dad for my dad died when I was 22.

So this woman tore the family apart 3 yrs ago when they wed. Redid the house changed the locks made it HER house title and all and the kids have to knock to come in and that is only if invited.
That is when the 3 of them hit MLC big time I think.
For myself I now realize that I too was affected it put a huge strain on our M we now fought about his family and we had never done that in 20+ yrs. I had been a part of that family and now I had to go through red tape to talk to my FIL.

Funny how things can trigger all of this.
weirder how all of them say the same things.
I believe the dad had MLC also for I came into the family when he was in mid 50's and had already moved to guest room. He was totally non affectionate to his wife. Miserable at times and had a bad temper for yrs. that got better. He drank unbelievably for several yrs and then stopped.

I am coming to be at peace with this after 16 mon. I no longer think about the past and how I should have seen it coming. I look ahead and at what I want and need in life. How will I be happy with or with out him.

being happy with myself was the first step to all of it.
I caused some of the problems in the M but it was a partnership and we needed to work together so I can't blame him and he can't blame me.
We need to ea. look at ourselves and take responsibility for our faults and move forward.

We spoke in July and he then decided I was to blame again and that he had to leave. ?? no one made him he got caught in A and he bailed that day after wiping out the bank acct which was preplanned according to cell records.. oh he left a papertrail that my L loved.

I emailed him wks ago -that after a yr away that I am not a part of his life so I can no longer be blamed for his unhappiness.
If he is still unhappy he needs to realize happiness comes from within you not from around you.

maybe some day he will figure it out.

Until then I look ahead and not back and take ea. day and find something in it for me. yesterday I sat and watched the herons fish and man they eat a lot of fish.

[angelica]

BBA + Heartbreak - reading your posts reminded of something I had entirely forgotten! My h said what he was doing was fine, because I had once broken off with a boy friend.

This was when I was 20 years old!!! We weren't even engaged. The logic was that it is OK to end relationships. He absolutely couldn't see that there was ANY difference between me finishing with a boyfriend, and him leaving me after more than 30 years of marriage!! You couldn't make this up!!

A

[Valentine]

MY H IS A MACHO TYPE OF GUY AND I THINK THAT ATTRIBUTED TO ALL OF THIS. HE ALWAYS WAS TRYING TO PROVE HIMSELF. HE SURE DID THAT. HE PROVED HE IS A JACKASS.

EVERYTHING HE USE TO BELIEVE IN SUCH AS INTEGRITY AND CHARACTER AND MORALS IS ALL GONE.

PEOPLE LAUGH AT HIM NOW. HE LOOKS SO SILLY DRIVING HIS JAGUAR CONVERTABLE WITH NO SHIRT ON AND HIS HAIR SPIKED UP. HE ALSO TREATS EVERYONE HORRIBLY AND ACTS SO ARROGANT.

PEOPLE FOR THE MOST PART DON'T LIKE HIM. EVERYONE USE TO LIKE HIM BEFORE BOMB.

I AM GOING TO THROW THIS OUT THERE. MY H ALWAYS PRIDED HIMSELF ON HIS SEXUAL ABILITY. AS HE GOT OLDER, HE DID NOT HAVE AS MUCH STAMINA AND STAYING POWER IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. I THINK INSTEAD OF JUST ACCEPTING THIS AS A FACT OF AGE, HE COULD NOT HANDLE IT.

I HOPE HE IS READING THIS (JUST KIDDING).

OMG, I think we are married to the same man! Assclown.

ACLL is macho too...he doesn't have any idea what MACHO really is...it is certainly NOT banging your client's bleach-blonde secretary and blaming your wife for it. Stupid ass.

I think this would have happened to him because this IS about him. His father died at age 64, a pathetic broken man.

I agree with Angelica, I am worth 10X my H. Maybe I always have been. All I do know is that the man he is right now---is a pathetic hollow shell of a person.

That IS sad. Not many people like my H anymore either. he used to be so revered. Now people think he is on drugs.

[heartbreak2]

Funny how we remember things while reading other's posts.

I too feel my H has gone backwards to a place he had not been since the first 2 mon of leaving.

In Oct 2006 after a trip together where he decided that he still loved OW and we were hopeless he emails me this.

I know that I am imperfect, and have grappled tremendously with what I have done and what to do. I realize that you really are upset with me. Think about how we interacted when you were painting the chair in the garage the other night. My decision to leave was not a fickle one, I was at my limit. As we have communicated in the past, my leaving was a wake up call or kick in the ass to us both. I need time and help to sort things out.

Funny way he has here realized all these things and yet did not work a single thing or sort anything out??
This was the day after an MC appt the last one we attended.
An appt that I brought up MLC and the MC didn't believe it it..
oh... I made sure he knew that I did and gave him a list of sites online that talked about it. For he claimed there was not much professionally written about it.

H was interested at this time too and did look at the sites and that I think made him think.

He had made it clear OW was what he wanted so when he came to get the kids I was busy watersealing a wood chair for out in a garden I had made to release frustration.

All I said was Yes I am putting the chair outside in the new garden so the house looks better since I will have to sell it.
That hit a nerve I guess for he snapped at me.."so that is the plan now?"
I didn't say a word kept on painting and told them to have a good time at dinner and the movies and I went on with life... guess that bugged him to form the remark about how we interacted. I was nice but distant and he didn't like it.

5 wks after this he had his 2nd touch and go.... I went dim during those 5 wks. and he pursued the D and then went into hiding. he has a pattern of D talk then hide talk then hide.... can't face the demons. Now he can't talk to me to my face.

He has not done this since he left, for we had a very good relationship and have not fought or argued about anything in the last 16 mon.

So maybe they have to reassess things over and over until they get it straight in their heads. OR their heads explode and the braincells realign ! I think they need electroshock therapy..!!!

[always_14]

Bless you, Angelica, for guiding us through the understanding of what has happened in our lives with your insightful threads!

Great topic. And, such a quirky one....the "passivity".....

It's always odd to me that someone who is on a mission to take control of their lives, and actively destroys it in the process, also willingly takes on a passive role that places them as the victim. When being a victim is what drives them to take control. And around and round we go.....

A lot of this, from my observations, has been the product of lies (to us, others and self) and a selective and deliberate misunderstanding of things. Like your H's "why do I have a bad R with the boys??" is him choosing to only see 4 out of 89 things in the picture.

What eludes these folks is that real power in your life means you take control, in a non-destructive way. You realize that you have all the power you want in your life, you simply place yourself in a different seat to do that. And, you let go of the things you don't.

Of course, they want to remain blameless in the consequences of their actions.

My H asked me to move out - yet he constantly tells others I left him and "cut him out of my life" when he asked for that too.

He says that I placed him in the position of being mean and harsh...that he had no other way. The fact is that he CHOOSES those ways and not to find another way to behave.

Everything....I mean EVERYTHING, is either my fault, works fault, co-workers fault, the ghosts that hate him....something, someone. NEVER HIM. Everyone is sabatoging him, out to get him, screw him over, life is so unfair, why him, does anyone know what it feels like, and he literally does not see the obvious facts of why he is there. It's amazing. It's dumbfounding.

In my case, I see H do this to me, and I also see him do it in the workplace. And, I have the added reward of seeing the reactions of everyone around him when plays the blame game.

So, he's left to rage against himself, the world, work, his M, his relationships. He struggles to have control, but thrives on not having any at all. Beating yourself against the wall of your own demons.

Truth be told, it was very revealing. I was raised so differently and have such a different worldview. I have a strong bias and cannot stand whiney, blameful, victim-complex men. And, it's incredible how long in my H I listened to that and supported someone who could never be supported enough. It was draining and overwhelming to be with someone so needy. ANd, being away from it for so long, just hearing of it, and listening to it for 10 minutes is enough to send me off the deep end.

[Was2sad]

heartbreak

You referenced a period of seven years between crisis of a relative in your post. May be more than coincidence.

Remember old movie about Seven Year Itch? Ever hear that the body replaces all its cells in seven year cycles? Would you doubt that a person goes through multiple life stages although only certain 'major' transitions are noticed. They often occur as someone approaches the decade birthdays, 30, 40, and 50 but rarely much after 55.

MLC Trivia, or just trivial urban myths? Who really cares, we got nothing better to worry about, right?

[angelica]

Always - YES YES YES

It is none of it their fault/responsibility. They were driven to do it. They are justified in doing it because they felt like it.

'Struggles to have control , , thrives on not having it' I am ticking all of these boxes.

Incidentally Was2sad posted a great post on Darboyd's thread just now. Now there is a great poster!!

I know what you mean about how you were raised - my dad was never whiney or self pitying. He had a wonderfully self deprecating sense of humour and grace that I aspire to.

Just recently I have been getting back my joie de vivre - another casuality of MLC: friends are so relieved that I am beginning to really act like the old me again. I feel like me too - not the sad stranger that my h knocked the stuffing out of by his casual and abrupt cruelty in announcing he had never loved me.

Easy to say that we 'let' our WAS have power, but the truth is that if we truly love someone and open our heart to them we are bound to be hurt by their defection. To not be hurt is not to have fully loved, I think. Getting over it is the great trick, first with smoke and mirrors, and then it happens!!

Hugs, A

[Jeanette1120]

Angelica

What a wonderful and insightful thread topic. I'm sure we all can relate one way or the other in this.

I just wanted to share a book that I have been reading....it was suggested to me from a fellow DB'er.

I Don't Want to Talk about It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression By Terrence Real

I found this book particularly interesting as "I don't want to talk about it", are words that I've heard so many many times. My x throughout his entire life was always a "background" person. I am a "foreground" person. He used to love this as it brought him out.....

Here is a "clip" of the book that really struck home to me.

"What comes naturally with children is often lost sight of in relationsh to adults, including ourselves. Society bids many of us to forget about inherant worth and, instead, to supplement the deficiency with external props such as weatlh, beauty, status. The greater the scarcity in ture-self esteem, the greater the need for supplementation".

As I look back I can see that he suffered from self-esteem issues long before I came along. It's like he was never satisfied with what he had, he had to have more. Bigger, better, newer......(mostly electronics). He would buy buy and buy......just to grow tired of it within weeks. If a friend bought one...he had to buy one.

I remember so clearly a week after he left...he said to me. I can never come back, my self esteem is so low, how low do you think it would be if I was to come home after leaving?

And sadly enough....from the few people I have spoken to at his workplace....(he is a supervisor) none of them hold him in hi regards anylonger. How sad that there is something that can be done, but they cannot see it.

Thanks for the wonderful topic

Jeanette