But Herb, my hat is off to you. I like that you are furthering your education. I like that you have been honest with yourself. You aren't being petty. No matter what happens, you will have a terrific life. Yes, strained tight now, but you are doing the right things.
All, thanks for the positive thoughts. She hasn't been "neglecting" the kids, but she has been much less attentive to them, and they have been complaining about it for two years. I feel guilty when I try to do something for myself, even though my therapist says it's a good idea, as I feel the kids are more neglected as I'm not there for them. I know that is pretty lame, but they don't need to suffer because of her. They're great kids!
Then you should certainly make them a part of as many activities as you can. Hopefully some ideas will come your way for things you would actually enjoy doing even with kids in tow, maybe even more because of them. Create new memories for you and the kids.
Raise the bar and look for things you might not have chosen to do on your own that will expand your kids lives. Maybe there are some outdoor hobbies you could consider starting that function on two levels. One with the kids. And one at the guys only level on weekends they are sleeping over with friends or family. They don't have to neglected. You don't sound like you would let that happen.
We are just wanting you to have that same level of concern for yourself. Don't neglect yourself. Teach your kids the importance of doing something for yourself in between new family activities. You are doing better than you think.
Was2Sad, I am working on getting myself together, and getting better on doing things for myself. That is a big thing that my therapist stresses too. My kids were really happy to see me last night, and we had quite the rough-house and play time together.
I came home last night from being on the road for a week, and I saw my wife out cooking on the grill, and my heart just about broke. I love her so much, but she wants nothing to do with me, including not touching me for the past two years. That's what makes it the hardest, having her right there, but her refusing any kind of emotional or physical connection. I need to end this marriage just to end the pain and loneliness I feel and to GAL. The biggest part of GAL for me is to have a lady who wants to be with me, and won't treat me like a lower form of being.
That's what makes it the hardest, having her right there, but her refusing any kind of emotional or physical connection. I need to end this marriage just to end the pain and loneliness I feel and to GAL.
If you think about it a bit more deeply, what you are saying is not "[my wife is hurting me]", but "I dont like my wife: I want to trade her in for a different one".
Is your "pain" is coming from something she is directly inflicting upon you? or from your own wants and desires?
Seems like the latter.
IF you want to have a more objective framework for "ending your marriage", how about this one:
When you can say that you (AND YOUR CHILDREN) would be better off, if you were living alone without dating anyone else, compared to living with your wife... then your wife is actual cause of pain for you, and it is a bit more reasonable to claim "you have to divorce her to stop the pain".
But right now, it doesnt sound like thats the case.
It sounds like you are looking to avoid looking at your own responsabilities in a few areas. One, is your responsability to your marriage. (to hang in there, even when she is less than you want from her) Another, is your responsability to your kids.
hHre's an example of the second:
Quote:
I feel the kids are more neglected as I'm not there for them. I know that is pretty lame, but they don't need to suffer because of her. They're great kids!
Is it your wife's choice or fault, that you are not there for them?
It sounds to me, like they are suffering because you're not there for them. How about looking at yourself, and places where you are neglecting your children, (and then doing something about it!) before getting all nasty about your wife neglecting them?
Who knows... that might have a side effect of also improving your wife's relationship with you.
PS: no one needs to file a divorce, to "get a life". When people claim that, what they are really saying is, they want to file divorce, to "get a date" !
"dating" is not synonymous with "having a life"
Last edited by Dom R; 10/01/0705:24 PM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
Dom, thanks for the in-depth discussion and asking some very tough questions, it makes people think about what they say and/or aren't saying. Sometimes my writing doesn't convey what is actually going on, so I will try to clear the air a little:
-I don't "like" my wife, I love her very much. When our marriage hit the bricks two years ago, she has wanted no part in trying to save it, and went so far as to verbally and mentally abuse me for months, as I tried to hold the family together. She threatened suicide (with a whole plan of action of exactly how she would do it), extortion (do this/that or I leave you and the kids), and of course, no emotional or physical contact (whatsoever) in the past two years. Social isolation, family isolation, and more. When she found out that I had been abused as a kid, she used that against me too.
-The marriage counselor/family therapist told us both that raising the children in this situation (he has been involved with our situation for 2 years) would be just as harmful if not more than a divorce due to the non-resolution of all of these issues. She just wants to spend the next 8 years raising the kids, and not having anything to do with me. Absolutely nothing. She makes every effort not to physically touch me, or show any interest in any topics of discussion I bring up, unless it involves her interests. We are civil, and share a joke or two, but that's it.
-When I was lamenting about not being there for the kids, it was due to the fact that I had to frequently travel for the government in the past few months, and couldn't be there all of the time when the W was starting her new career and finding a new life/friends. I feel guilty when I try to take time for myself and GAL, where the kids get a little less time with me. I am the kids Gibraltar, and they know it, and they appreciate it. I make sure that the important things (big and little) are taken care of. Birthdays, homework, special events, taking people to the doctor when they are sick, housework, clothes shopping, last minute things for school, school events, and more. I love traditions, and make sure the family fun is never forgotten.
--I want more than a date, I want a life companion. Someone who won't isolate my kids from my family, who won't treat me like damaged goods, who wants to share some part of her life with me, who wants to learn and talk and laugh, and love with me. I don't want to wait until I'm darn near 50 for my wife to decide she wants a divorce. Right now she is getting more and more distant, and she is showing no signs of regret and/or slowing the divide, as I keep the house together, pay the bills, and listen to the kids complain about how the W never spends hardly any time with them as she is on her phone with her friends, or off with them.
--Believe me, I still harbor fantasies that she will 180 and want to work on the M, but forgiving person that I am, I don't know if I can't forget the horrible, vile things that she has said and done to me in the past two years. I want just to hold her hand so much, and can't even do that. Even that small of a gesture from her would (almost?) make it bearable.
Dom, thanks for the in-depth discussion and asking some very tough questions, it makes people think about what they say and/or aren't saying. Sometimes my writing doesn't convey what is actually going on, so I will try to clear the air a little:
-I don't "like" my wife, I love her very much. When our marriage hit the bricks two years ago, she has wanted no part in trying to save it, and went so far as to verbally and mentally abuse me for months, as I tried to hold the family together. She threatened suicide (with a whole plan of action of exactly how she would do it), extortion (do this/that or I leave you and the kids), and of course, no emotional or physical contact (whatsoever) in the past two years. Social isolation, family isolation, and more. When she found out that I had been abused as a kid, she used that against me too.
-The marriage counselor/family therapist told us both that raising the children in this situation (he has been involved with our situation for 2 years) would be just as harmful if not more than a divorce due to the non-resolution of all of these issues. She just wants to spend the next 8 years raising the kids, and not having anything to do with me. Absolutely nothing. She makes every effort not to physically touch me, or show any interest in any topics of discussion I bring up, unless it involves her interests. We are civil, and share a joke or two, but that's it.
-When I was lamenting about not being there for the kids, it was due to the fact that I had to frequently travel for the government in the past few months, and couldn't be there all of the time when the W was starting her new career and finding a new life/friends. I feel guilty when I try to take time for myself and GAL, where the kids get a little less time with me. I am the kids Gibraltar, and they know it, and they appreciate it. I make sure that the important things (big and little) are taken care of. Birthdays, homework, special events, taking people to the doctor when they are sick, housework, clothes shopping, last minute things for school, school events, and more. I love traditions, and make sure the family fun is never forgotten.
--I want more than a date, I want a life companion. Someone who won't isolate my kids from my family, who won't treat me like damaged goods, who wants to share some part of her life with me, who wants to learn and talk and laugh, and love with me. I don't want to wait until I'm darn near 50 for my wife to decide she wants a divorce. Right now she is getting more and more distant, and she is showing no signs of regret and/or slowing the divide, as I keep the house together, pay the bills, and listen to the kids complain about how the W never spends hardly any time with them as she is on her phone with her friends, or off with them.
--Believe me, I still harbor fantasies that she will 180 and want to work on the M, but forgiving person that I am, I don't know if I can't forget the horrible, vile things that she has said and done to me in the past two years. I want just to hold her hand so much, and can't even do that. Even that small of a gesture from her would (almost?) make it bearable.
Hi AlaskaH, I'm glad you took my message well, in the spirit it was intended. I'm going to follow up with another "toughie" for you. You wrote, summarized:
Quote:
-I don't "like" my wife, I love her very much.
-When I was lamenting about not being there for the kids, it was due to the fact that ....
--I want more than a date, I want a life companion.
I hope you will reread my post, and reflect that none of that stuff that you wrote, contradicts what I wrote. You "replied" to what I wrote, on the same topics/items that I wrote... but it seems as though my basic premises still stand unshaken:
you are looking at divorce, in order to "get something better than your current wife". Not because she is directly hurting you. She is definately withholding things from you. So, you have painful regrets on what you might have with another person. But, in contrast to many others on here... your wife is not DIRECTLY hurting you, by, for example, having an affair with someone else.
if you took the "easy way out" of divorce (which never is really easy), you would probably regret it when you came to your senses.
Quote:
-The marriage counselor/family therapist told us both that raising the children in this situation (he has been involved with our situation for 2 years) would be just as harmful if not more than a divorce due to the non-resolution of all of these issues.
You went to a LOUSY marriage counsellor. That's just not true. I'm sure that he makes a lot of money helping people "move on" and self-justifying it to themselves. but i'm guessing that the number of marriages he has actually HELPED.. is tiny. Sounds like you should have ditched him a long time ago. Seems like he has been a major contributing factor in making your marriage WORSE: by not giving you useful help, and by justifying to your wife, her continued anti-marriage behaviour.
Your children are not harmed by the fact that their daddy is not sexually or emotionally satisfied by their mommy. What they care about, and need, is that both their parents live with them, and love them, and dont have violently scary arguments all the time. If you two can just reasonably "get along" and be civil to each other, then they'll be doing ok. If mommie isnt showing them enough love right now, and they are suffering from that... how is getting a divorce going to help that situation?
From their perspective, probably the most damaging thing, is that you "travel a lot". You getting a divorce, and thus forcing a split between their parents, would hurt them 10 times worse. Both because of the immediate hurt of a broken home, but also becuase it will scar their future potential for a good, lasting marriage of their own in the future.
In my opinion, the best thing you can do for them, is not to look for a new wife, but look for a new job.
Now, if you want to be selfish, sure, go look for a new woman, have fun, etc, etc. It will most likely be way easier, and more enjoyable to you personally, than trying to coax your hardened wife back to "life".
But if you truely care about your children's wellbeing... you gotta be unselfish.
Last edited by Dom R; 10/01/0710:08 PM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
Dom, I get what you are saying, however, I don't think you get the entire picture. I don't travel that much any more, short of a natural disaster, I won't be going anywhere for quite awhile.
Our marriage counselor also serves as her psychologist, and mine. He has very intimate knowledge of both of our issues and situation. With our permission, he is able to share a limited amount of information with each spouse. When she told him and I that she has been affected, to the "very core of her cells, and it's not her fault that she doesn't want to work on the marriage."
Every mental health professional and counselor (a total of at least 6 PHDs and MDs) that she has been involved with or is very familiar with her situation/state of mind, all have provided the same diagnosis, and outlook for the marriage. When she threatend suicide, her primary care physician wanted to have her in the emergency room for monitoring, but my wife talked her out of it.
Every time that a mental health professional or counselor has told her what she doesn't want to hear, she gets another one. Which so far is all of them. The only reason that she is staying with our current psychologist is that she isn't going to work on the marriage anymore. He said that she may never make progress due to her narcissism, splitting and state of denial.
She now does what she wants, (i.e. schedules conferences, trips, meetings with her friends and god knows what) leaving me to watch the kids, or leaving them alone for hours while I am working. This DOES hurt the kids and myself, as our family time is greatly reduced, the kids feel abandoned by my wife, and are pretty darn sad by the whole situation. Other things that she forgets or forgoes also impact the kids (i.e. holidays). My wife may not care for holidays and family traditions, but she doesn't realize how important they are to the kids. She continuously downplays and sometimes declines to participate in these important activities, which REALLY hurt the kids.
The kids have already been negatively affected and my daughter has had some serious social issues, and she sees a child psychologist. My son is also starting to show these signs, and we have him seeing a psychologist.
I am also a member of a progressive men's suport group (not a divorce support group) and they too (including two MDs and a phychologist) comment that this is a very unhealthy relationship.
The big thing is my wife is expecting this to go on for the next EIGHT YEARS until the kids leave the house. If anybody wants to live in these conditions for eight years, they should have a mental examination (quotes from my phychologist and psychatrist). No emotional contact, no physical contact whatsoever (I'm not even talking about sex), these are basic human requirements for humans to live. My mental needs require alot reassurance, and my kids can't provide that.
Well, I have a four day holidy weekend coming up, the weather is nice, and I'm going for a hike in Michigan! Thanks!
