I share your feelings about the guilt... Here's the thing to keep in mind though... Both of you did things to get you where you were. It's a relationship, it takes two to make it work. I look at my marriage and see all the things I could have done differently, and I see the things my wife could have done differently. Either of us could have made better decisions to keep us from getting here.
BUT... I am only responsible for my decisions and my contribution. Thinking about her contribution and her actions does not help me, her or our marriage. Thinking about the things she did wrong does make me feel less guilty, but at the same time it also makes me feel more resentful and it shifts my focus from my problems to hers. Doing so will not help me to change. It's just a distraction and a way of numbing the guilt. It is not productive. Our wives have their own issues, and part of our change has to be allowing them to deal with their issues on their time in their own way. That is what we must strive to do, even though it may mean that they choose to never deal with it and never come back to us. The more we try to fix their problems or tell them what they should do, the longer it will take for them to actually be able to face up to what they need to do.
Good work. It is great that you are trying get a more realistic picture of your M in your head rather than the pollyanna vision that LBSs develop and cling to. It is perfectly normal to get that pollyanna vision. The LBS super over-idealizes the M. The WAS does the opposite. Eventually, BOTH parties will move back to a realistic picture. The sooner you find a more balanced, authentic vision, the better. You will stop beating yourself up. You will start considering what you really want in your life. You will start pursuing things in your life that will genuinely enhance it. You will develop more genuine compassion both for yourself and W. W is as messed up than your or more so.
I didn't take your plan to be one of trying to guilt W about her role in the problems in the M. I didn't see that you planned to discuss your insight with her at all. (At least, I hope you aren't planning to do so.) Rather, I read you as trying to get to a more objective place in which you OWN your part of the problems, you OWN your acceptance of her ill treatment of you, you take RESPONSIBILITY for making any future R with anyone one that works better for YOU, and so on. So, I really don't see taking an objective look at the deep problems in your M as jumping on the victim bandwagon. I guess it could be. But, generally, moving to a place of considered and realistic evaluation of the problems that existed in your M before and after the A is a powerful move forward.
"I've got a little man on my shoulder who keeps whispering in my ear, "it was all BS, she never really tried, she was just waiting for you to effe up and you did. it was all about him all the time she never stopped seeing him." For the most part, I keep that little F%%ker bottled up, but occassionally he escapes (witness my stupid, and not nearly as humorous as that of Revenge of the Nerds, panty raid). "
Don't keep him bottled up. Listen to him. He is almost certainly right.
Again, people LIE ABOUT ALL A RELATED ACTIVITY. W will only come fully clean IF you reconcile, AFTER you both recommit to the R. Until then, it will not be worth the cost. Even then, everything may not come up.
Right now, YOUR GUT is much more trustworthy than anything else. How often has your gut lied to your thus far? I'd say 99% of the time it has probably been right. LISTEN TO YOURSELF. You KNOW what is going on. If you quit bottling up the little guy whispering in your ear, you keep silencing yourself. Why? To stay in denial. But where does that get you? Snooping, confronting, self-destructive behavior. Because, your little voice will insist on proving himself right. Just listen to him. He is right. Dump the denial. Trust your gut. I promise, your little voice isn't feeling like a dumbass. If you accept that little voice as your own voice, which of course it is, then you'll stop feeling like a dumbass.
Honestly, OT, my gut says she's telling me the truth about not having a PA with OM -- at least as of yet. Evidence points to the opposite, and I do think it's trending that way, but I don't think it's gone there yet.
See, the thing that bothers/frightens me about this is that to her it won't be an A if she starts up with him again. I'm out of the house. We have a separation agreement in place. We aren't married in anything but a legal sense. For her, it's a clean slate. Since she was talking to him for who knows how many months, sure, it was a de facto EA, but I don't think it was in her mind because, as she likes to say, SHE IS DONE with our R.
My gut says two, contradictory things: 1. I need to make one last effort to go to a retrovaille weekend or some such to see if we can create even a small spark because if she starts up again, I don't know if I'll have the patience for it to run it's course. 2. Doing that will push her directly into OM's arms.
I just don't know.
Also, looking back at a few posts, I can see where I give the impression that i think everything would be hunky dory if we tried together. I really don't. I also know that there were some real problems in our M. I just never focused on them here, because I found that early on, if I focused on the negative, it sapped my energy for doing the positive, DBing things that would attract her back.
So, back to square one: GAL, BD. Off you go.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
Hi I have been secretly following your sitch....lol...and have not posted until now. I just posed a question to Nomo....I want to ask you the same....When is enough enough for you??
Let it all go Heim...the wife the marriage...let it go.... And don't give me that crap that you have because your actions are saying something else....
I give up. I cannot believe you are even considering pushing Retrouvaille.
What part of GIVE HER SPACE AND TIME do you not understand?
Your W is on the pill. Your W is hypersensitive about you entering and leaving her house. Your W never stopped contact with a man she had sex with in your house in your bed. You do the math.
I would not even mention retrouvaille unless she has directly said that she is interested in seeing what you can work out. I've learned the hard way over the past month, once they tell you that they are done, anything you do to indicate that you want them to change their mind will only backfire. You cannot change their mind. You know you can do things for you that will influence their decision, but you can't do anything for them to change their mind.
Think back to before you met. What kind of guy were you when you fell in love? Did you push her to be with you? When things started out and you were dating, did you talk about your undying love, what a great marriage you could have? No, you were strong independent individual who simply chose to spend time with her and share parts of your life with her. You've got to be that guy again. Trust me, if you get back to being a guy who can stand on his own, who is independent and capable and has a fun life, she'll notice. You can't guarantee it will bring her back, but if it doesn't I can guarantee it will put you in a much better position to deal with it.
I know it feels weird to back off when you want to save the marriage and you don't want her thinking you've given up. But I've made more progress with my W by doing that very thing than I have by trying to fix things. At the same time, while you do that it is critical that you don't withdraw and you don't avoid her. You need to show her that you are an independent person, but that you still enjoy her company. You need to show that you want her, but do not need her, and that you are prepared to move on with your life. Needing someone means you try to control them. Wanting someone means that you control you and trust them to make their own decisions.
I have to agree - you truly need to let it go. You really should be going to counseling, and I am not meaning that in a condescending way b/c I go myself - I just think it would really help you get through this process.
